QV
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 2,473
- Points
- 1,010
And I maintain if the GTA became the 51st state, the loss can be replicated. Where if we lost the bulk of a specific resource, it cannot be replicated - it must be sourced from elsewhere.
2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux
- Thread starter Remius
- Start date
Brad Sallows
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 6,885
- Points
- 1,040
If we lost a financial centre like Toronto to the US, I doubt we'd be able to re-establish it. We'd be entering a competitive market long after the sector leaders have been established, without any disruptive innovation, which is often a good predictor of failure.
- Reaction score
- 18,368
- Points
- 1,360
- Reaction score
- 5,253
- Points
- 1,040
That's just a stupid argument. Raw materials on their own are useless without processing/fabricating and vice versa. No one is going to invest trillions in redeveloping the massive infrastructure that is there to support that in the GTA area, as well as the expertise. If it was to be lost with the GTA it would be gone from Canada forever.
Hint; location and geography is a key part of that infrastructure; being located on ports connected to a lot of major US cities via the great lakes, as well as the rail and highway infrastructure is why it works. There is a lot of heavy industry that very specifically is built up along the high power lines from Darlington and Niagara falls, and still a lot of marine traffic on the lakes.
Logistics is a key part of the whole production scheme, and you really don't have any idea of what you are talking about if you think that infrastructure, geographic location and things like customs, import/export requirements etc don't all play a key part in figuring out the supply chain to make something useful out of raw materials.
I'm not sure if you are just deliberately trolling at this point though.
lenaitch
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 2,911
- Points
- 1,160
Curious thought experiment. There's no provision in the Constitution to kick somebody out and I'm not aware of any groundswell from southern Ontario to jump ship. If anything, some feel that it should be it's own province but what the 'it' includes becomes a matter of debate. The scale in the picture kinda sucks but The Red Line looks to be around the 46th parallel (ish), so does enclose all of the agricultural economy of southwestern and eastern Ontario which is significant but I don't know what percentage it is of our total ag output. The fact that the line also captures southern New Brunswick and Nova Scotia I'll just chalk up to lazy cartography.
People toss around 'GTA', but that is just Toronto, Durham, Halton Peel and York. While there is manufacturing, there is little of what I would call 'heavy industry'. Only one auto plant; very little that can't go out in a seacan. When you start to broaden out to the rest of the alphabet you get into the GTHA (Greater Toronto Hamilton Area), which adds Hamilton to the mix and which has a fair bit of heavy industry. Farther still the GGH (Greater Golden Hoseshoe) which adds Niagara, Haldimand and Waterloo (a lot of tech) regions as well as the counties of Brant, Wellington, Dufferin, Simcoe (another auto plant), Kawartha Lakes, Peterborough and Northumberland (i.e. the whole centre cut).
Toronto in particular is an economic hub, but a lot of wealth reported is either 'paper' (banking) or actually generated elsewhere (mining) because their head offices are there. Even for manufacturing and retail, much of it is because of head office location. Canadian Tire's head office is in Toronto. What little they actually manufacture under their own flag is from offshore. If they moved their head office to Tobermory tomorrow, their economic reporting would go with it.
I had to laugh when I saw the argument that one of Toronto's strengths is its location on the Seaway. The only things that flow through the Port of Toronto is sugar, road salt and some cement - all inbound. I don't think anything has been exported by water in a couple of decades.
One of the concerns I have with our economy is the amount of manufacturing that are branch plants that are parented outside of our borders. Every time there is an economic hiccup, our branch plants are under a bigger microscope than either home-based sites or ones that are in low labour cost countries. If nothing else, the GTA/GTHA/GGH is a vast wealth of income tax revenue and votes.
People toss around 'GTA', but that is just Toronto, Durham, Halton Peel and York. While there is manufacturing, there is little of what I would call 'heavy industry'. Only one auto plant; very little that can't go out in a seacan. When you start to broaden out to the rest of the alphabet you get into the GTHA (Greater Toronto Hamilton Area), which adds Hamilton to the mix and which has a fair bit of heavy industry. Farther still the GGH (Greater Golden Hoseshoe) which adds Niagara, Haldimand and Waterloo (a lot of tech) regions as well as the counties of Brant, Wellington, Dufferin, Simcoe (another auto plant), Kawartha Lakes, Peterborough and Northumberland (i.e. the whole centre cut).
Toronto in particular is an economic hub, but a lot of wealth reported is either 'paper' (banking) or actually generated elsewhere (mining) because their head offices are there. Even for manufacturing and retail, much of it is because of head office location. Canadian Tire's head office is in Toronto. What little they actually manufacture under their own flag is from offshore. If they moved their head office to Tobermory tomorrow, their economic reporting would go with it.
I had to laugh when I saw the argument that one of Toronto's strengths is its location on the Seaway. The only things that flow through the Port of Toronto is sugar, road salt and some cement - all inbound. I don't think anything has been exported by water in a couple of decades.
One of the concerns I have with our economy is the amount of manufacturing that are branch plants that are parented outside of our borders. Every time there is an economic hiccup, our branch plants are under a bigger microscope than either home-based sites or ones that are in low labour cost countries. If nothing else, the GTA/GTHA/GGH is a vast wealth of income tax revenue and votes.
QV
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 2,473
- Points
- 1,010
Ideally, it would be nice to avoid the situation Germany is in with energy at the moment.
QV
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 2,473
- Points
- 1,010
See lenaitch’s response? That’s how you play nice. You should try it sometime instead of insults.
The idea that southern Ontario/Golden Horseshoe would leave Canada is silly in that they believe they ARE Canada (aside from Quebec) and all other provinces (aside from Quebec, again) joined them. So they wouldn't be leaving, they'd be kicking everyone else out of Canada. Toronto would be named the official capital of "Canada" and all the other provinces would have to decide if they want to form a new country, or separate into individual nation states.
- Reaction score
- 1,320
- Points
- 1,260
Even secession - Metro/GTA/GTHA/GGH - from Ontario ( let alone Canada ) would be "one of the hardest political maneuvers in Canadian history".
How hard would it actually be for Toronto to become its own province?
It’s not impossible, but it would be one of the hardest political maneuvers in Canadian history
nationalpost.com
Happy Guy
Full Member
- Reaction score
- 585
- Points
- 810
What it takes to make Conservative Party a contender again
Interesting podcast on the National Post today with an interview with Ms. Tasha Kheiriddin, who once considered running for the leadership of the CPC. The topic was "What it takes to make the Conservative Party a contender again."I agree with her many of her opinions but I know that some people will in this forum will not especially with her proposal of Canada once again becoming the "hewers of wood and drawers of water” for world again.
She also eloquently stated, in a significantly more polite way, why the many people (like myself) intensely dislike the current Prime Minister.
- Reaction score
- 7,290
- Points
- 1,160
:max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/GDP_final-c532743acd98498baa8c8da493017af8.png)
Gross Domestic Product (GDP) Formula and How to Use It
Gross domestic product is the monetary value of all finished goods and services made within a country during a specific period.
Part of the problem with this discussion is the use of the GDP.
GDP is influenced by the amount of people buying and selling, the number of transactions and the goods and services they exchange. That can all happen in a closed economy.
Power is generated in southern ontario by southern ontarians for southern ontarians. Some goes to industry, a lot in fact, but some goes to keep lights on and people warm.
Which like power generation is staffed by southern ontarians for southern ontarians.
I'll come back to this
Imported fuel which is locally processed for the local market and which produces by products which are used locally and re-exported to the points of origin of the imported fuels.
Very true. A matter of concern to other places in Canada that would like to compete.
Vehicle production that largely feeds the local market, that was based on international trade agreements and placed where the population was densest, supplying both a labour force and a local market.
Coming back to the food processing - most of the raw material is imported to the GTA - either from within Canada, from the US or overseas. It is then turned into products that suit the local southern ontario market by southern ontarians. Those plants then export those foods back, like the petroleum by products, to those parts of Canada that don't have the production capabilities. In other words back to the point of origin.
Every year, no, every month, I come across another Western entrepreneur who wants to convert local raw materials - grains, pulses, meat, potatoes, beets, berries, milk, eggs into value added goods that can be "exported" within Canada. And they all die. Internal trade barriers. Lack of Capital. Lack of Labour. Lack of Interest from head offices located in the St Lawrence Lowlands.
Although, to be fair, most of those Laurentian head offices are being eaten up by Brazilian, Swiss, German, French, Italian, British and US companies making it harder yet for people outside of the area to get their ideas considered.
The internationals aren't overly concerned about the GDP in the area. Except insofar as it influences how much they can skim from that circulating pool of funds and export back to their banks where they control their home governments and can influence the tax regime.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 9,165
- Points
- 1,160
I would just be happy if Ontario realized that there is a whole chunk of province above the 50 degree Longitude that they forgot about.
FJAG
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 11,307
- Points
- 1,160
Ha! That's a good one. When I grew up in Toronto we firmly believed that there was nothing north of the 401.
- Reaction score
- 7,290
- Points
- 1,160
Not a problem - if Vancouver and Montreal split from BC and QC as well. I'm sure you would get your 7/50 support no problem at all.
- Reaction score
- 18,368
- Points
- 1,360
Ha! That's a good one. When I grew up in Toronto we firmly believed that there was nothing north of the401Hwy 7.
- Reaction score
- 7,290
- Points
- 1,160
What's that bit about money not being able to buy you happiness ... but it beats the alternative.
- Reaction score
- 7,290
- Points
- 1,160
Ha! That's a good one. When I grew up in Toronto we firmly believed that there was nothing north of the 401.
First trip out of Toronto in 1966 was on the Dayliner to Peterboro. Toronto ended at Scarborough and the wilderness began at AAAAAA-gin-COOOOOurt.
Similar threads
