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Afghan troops threatened Canadian soldier: records

kilekaldar

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I was on radio shift when this occurred, the CLP involved was from my C/S. From what I could hear, it was very tense situation to say the least.
As per normal, there's more to this then what the article states, namely that at the time we had been told repeatedly that ANA trucks and uniforms had been stolen by the Taliban.
The guy manning the RWS made a hard, rapid decision based on his ROEs, it's important that those of us who where not on site(I include myself) and in his position remember that. The media can indulge in infantile second guessing, we know better.



Afghan troops threatened Canadian soldier: records


Updated Wed. Oct. 10 2007 5:49 PM ET

Murray Brewster, The Canadian Press

OTTAWA -- A Canadian soldier was threatened with summary execution by enraged Afghan National Army troops last winter after being involved in a friendly-fire shooting, military police records show.

The sun had just peeked above an unusually hazy horizon the morning of Feb. 12, 2007, when the gunner on an RG-31 Nyala truck mistakenly opened fire on an Afghan Army pickup truck on a desert road east of Kandahar.

An Afghan platoon commander, 23-year-old Lt. Abdul Hadi, the driver of the vehicle, was badly wounded in the arm and hand. He had missed repeated warning signs that he stop as his truck came on a broken down Canadian logistics convoy.

Within minutes of the shooting a tense standoff developed, as the Afghans demanded the hapless gunner be handed over to them.

From his seat in the heavily armoured truck the soldier who had pulled the trigger "observed one ANA soldier slide his finger across his throat, insinuating he was going to kill him," says a summary report prepared by the Canadian Forces National Investigative Service.

The report was obtained by The Canadian Press under the Access to Information Act.

After their light truck had been sprayed with 7.62-millimetre machine-gun fire -- hitting the truck at least 21 times -- Afghan troops "immediately exited their vehicle, took up firing positions."

Within minutes they were reinforced by a second group of soldiers who aimed their weapons directly at Canadian troops.

"ANA soldiers were very mad and threatened to kill them all if they didn't hand over the gunner who had fired on them," said a witness statement taken by police in the days after the incident.

"The interpreter translated that the shooting was a mistake to the ANA soldiers. The ANA replied that if Canadians didn't recognize the ANA, then the ANA wouldn't recognize the Canadians."

One of the Canadians who was part of the security cordon around the convoy's broken truck initially tried to calm the Afghans.

"One ANA soldier pointed an AK-47 directly in his face and was told by the interpreter that the ANA was going to kill him."

Another Canadian soldier walked back to the open rear hatch of the Nyala and informed those inside that "the ANA wanted the gunner dead."

The Afghans had the Canadians encircled and promised to let the rest of the convoy go as long as the shooter was handed over.

One of the Canadians standing toe-to-toe with the Afghans told military police it felt like the standoff "went on forever."

Nerves were rattled further when the assault rifle belonging to an Afghan soldier, who jumped out of a truck, accidentally discharged, almost blowing off the foot of another soldier.

The Canadians were convinced the Afghans were "about to engage them" and saw the arrival of second group of soldiers as preparation to repel an anticipated Canadian "counterattack," one witness statement said.

"The ANA continually threatened to kill them and kept requesting the gunner and the gunner's name."

The convoy's second-in-command refused the repeated demands while the gunner, who was on his second mission outside the wire, sat quietly in his seat.

The standoff lasted for almost an hour, police records show, and was resolved when one of the Canadians persuaded the angry Afghans that the matter should be handled by superior officers.

The wounded officer was evacuated to a nearby Afghan army camp, then a civilian hospital and finally to the coalition medical facility at Kandahar Airfield. He made a full recovery.

In an interview with The Canadian Press days after the incident, a senior Afghan Army commander in Kandahar demanded that the gunner face some form of military justice. Lt.-Gen. Rahmatullah Raoufi said he understood the mistakes that led up to the incident, but said the soldier must be held accountable.

"The incident was a mistake," Raoufi, the commander of all Afghan forces in the south, said through a translator.

"(But) the Canadian who shot our man must be punished according to Canadian army law."

Capt. Cindy Tessier, a military spokeswoman, said investigators have decided not to charge the unidentified soldier.

The decision was made even though the soldier conceded in his interview with investigators that he acted on his own.

"He stated he was never ordered by anyone to engage the vehicle and took it upon himself to escalate the rules of engagement," says a Feb. 26, 2007, summary of the investigation.

In talking to investigators, one of the soldier's buddies stuck up for him, saying the Afghan truck came up too fast and there was no time to inform anyone. The fact the sun was just cresting over the hill behind the pickup truck was another factor, according to witness statements.

There have been a number of accidental shootings involving Canadian troops that have resulted in at least seven fatalities.

Six days after the February standoff with the Afghan Army, Canadian troops who had just exited an ambush mistakenly shot and killed an Afghan National Police officer guarding the governor's palace as well as a homeless man.

The incidents, including a recent one on Oct. 2 that saw one man killed and a child injured, have become a growing source of anger for the Afghans.

Last month residents in the Zhari district, outside of Kandahar, held demonstration against international troops, including Canada.
 
Confirms my confidence in the military leadership of these 'third turd' countries.

Many on here 'go to bat' for the ANA, sorry I don't quite feel your enthusiasm

Seen the Iraqi Army first hand, and they are kind of cut from the same mentality.

I view the CF member's action most likely was within ROE's. He felt threatened, and in that world of shyte, thats fair enough by me!

What would have happened if the truck was let thru to pass and it detonated? More ramp ceremonies!

I don't call these shootings accidental, they are warranted because 'others' fail to obey the simplist of commands. The outcome is unfortunate, but thats war.

EDITed for spelling...


Wes
 
An Afghan platoon commander, 23-year-old Lt. Abdul Hadi, the driver of the vehicle, was badly wounded in the arm and hand. He had missed repeated warning signs that he stop as his truck came on a broken down Canadian logistics convoy.

Obviously, the problem wasn't on our side.
 
Obviously, the problem wasn't on our side.

Don't be too sure of that.  Let's just say it takes more than one mistake for an incident to escalate to a blue on blue/green.
 
Gunner said:
Don't be too sure of that.  Let's just say it takes more than one mistake for an incident to escalate to a blue on blue/green.

+1

  When working with local army, one needs to use ones head a lot...  It is THEIR country.



 
Good resolve on the part of our guys.  That situation could have gotten VERY ugly.

It's good to see that cooler heads prevailed.
 
recceguy said:
Obviously, the problem wasn't on our side.

Accually.......

Talking to the guys that were there, It kinda was our fault... i wont go into details on an open forum, but if you want to know you can PM me for the Story i heard straight from the Convoy 3 I/C aka CSS I/C 

Lets just say there was some mistakes made on all sides, and it was very quickly chalked up to a lessons learned scenario....

PM for details.

Cheers
  Tommy
 
Thank the good lord that everyone came out in one piece.

I am just happy that the ROEs we are using in Afghanistan are robust VS the lousy deal we had in the FRY
 
Gunner said:
Don't be too sure of that.  Let's just say it takes more than one mistake for an incident to escalate to a blue on blue/green.
Infidel-6 said:
+1

  When working with local army, one needs to use ones head a lot...  It is THEIR country.
Tommy said:
Accually.......

Talking to the guys that were there, It kinda was our fault... i wont go into details on an open forum, but if you want to know you can PM me for the Story i heard straight from the Convoy 3 I/C aka CSS I/C 

Lets just say there was some mistakes made on all sides, and it was very quickly chalked up to a lessons learned scenario....

PM for details.

Cheers
  Tommy
My fault for using the 'broad brush', I suppose. I guess I meant to say that it seems a huge part of the problem was the Afghan commander ignoring the numerous signals to stop, but I can only glean that information from the news article. Perhaps now that the investigation is over, someone can get the true facts from it, and post it sometime in the future, when available as open source. Not second or third hand info, or especially news articles. Until then, I won't speculate anymore. I should know better. Lesson learned (again).
 
Easy there, strange that you would think of this, (not accusing you of anything mind you) Lets put this shoe on the other foot - what if the roles where reversed? I know for a fact that with any crew of Canadians I worked with over there would have people demanding the Afghani gunner for alittle "deal with it at the lowest level justice" and we don't even have a culture that normally condones summery retribution. There is no reason to believe that Afghanis don't form bonds with members of their combat units as strong as we do.  As a matter of fact, one could assume that they form bonds possibly even stronger then us given their culture of extended family, tribe and regionalism.  So the "give us money" thing is quite a big assumption here I think.
 
Teflon said:
Easy there, strange that you would think of this  So the "give us money" thing is quite a big assumption here I think.

Sorry mate, I tend to agree here. Corruption is rife. Thats one of the big issues in the whole bloody culture, whether whatever one does to exist.

At the end of the day we all can agree they don't think like we do, nor can we expect them to.

Cheers mate,


Wes
 
That is certainly your prerogative Wes, and if we where talking about the ANP I would certainly come to the same opinion but my experience with the ANA was very different.
 
Agreed Teflon.

the ANA arnt perfect, but I also noticed they had much more loyalty to the mission and were less Corrupt-able (if thats a word...) then the ANP.

Recceguy,  Its all good... had i not been in the know, I would probabbably think the exact same way. we put alot of effort into training to ensure these kind of things dont happen...

one of the biggest issues was communication and timing. lack of comms, and the midst of a Relief in Place... half the people on that convoy were straight off the plane, and the other half were trying to train them! or it was one of the first times out on their own.... people were very nervous, and had not yet developed that spidey sense one gets after a few months in theatre...

IIRC there were quite a few itchy fingers at the start of Roto 3. not to mention a few instances of bad timing and unfortunate incidents...

Cheers
    Tommy
 
After their light truck had been sprayed with 7.62-millimetre machine-gun fire -- hitting the truck at least 21 times -- Afghan troops "immediately exited their vehicle, took up firing positions."

Given this was the immediate result of the fire, the Lt was lucky he was not killed.

This incident fits with a theory that I was told this spring that Roto 3 wasn't trained to respect, think and react, but trained to be scared.
 
We are just more circumspect about "Money talks, etc", but you are right.
 
Corruption Memory No1 dated 12 Oct 07

While scouting a civvy contract repair facility in Baghdad, was approached at one dodgy facility (PKM w/belt of 4AP1T behind the door, and  local questionable paramilitaries with a variety of AKs, all stinky with ultraextreme super-dooper-really-funky-intense-outragousely rank BO and unshaven hard and bitter faces) who said "if you get your uparmoured vehicles serviced here, we will get you serviced here too, as we have access to nice local Iraqi girls". There we were all bombed up with our carbines and frags, boiling in our body armour and kevlar helmets, webbing etc! Like a scene from Escape From New York, the only thing missing was Snake Plisken, ha! Hell, maybe he was there, in an air-conditioned room swilling a cold drink!

Ran by too too many LECs all named Mohammad, Many questionable, some later found out to be 'fair-dinkum ridgy-didge'  bad guys, while English and other foreigners owned these places, or appeared to anyways.

Gotta love corruption (ha), ha! But steered clear of that place. Also offered us a variety of beer, vodka, whisky and rum.

I know we are talking about the ANA, and AFG in general, but the date does not fall to far from the palm tree!

The New Iraqi Army (EDIT - In my opinion) was a farce, and the Police were all totally untrustworthy, and yes the US buck talked. Greed, graft, and corruption were as common as sand on the beach. All part of the twisted culture I hope one day to forget. Life is as cheap as swatting a mosquito. I cannot say one thing good about the region.

The New Iraqi Army, would just dessert essential posts, especially on Rte Irish, and at night, or if it was cold, they were scared, or they just wanted to go home and sleep. No leadership, low morale, lacking 100% confidence, and poorly trained. The Police were similar but worse, and open to cash bribes etc. Loyalties were split pro Saddam and not), but  Andrew Jackson, Gen Grant, and Ben Franklin took precidence all too often.

At night the real Boogy Men would appear, lay IEDs, chuck recces, plan, and confirm for later complex attacks. All 5 mins after the cowards left their posts.

Therfore I have zero confidence in the whole lot, the culture, and everything in between, all gained not from reading blogs, news papers, or watching the latest headlines on CNN or AJ, or Fox, or locally, but from being on the ground. yes smelling it, tasting it, and living it, ya, we'll chuck eating, drinking and breathing it too.

We all have our opinions, you've heard mine.


Cheers,

Wes

Ya I know... EDITed for more spelling and grammar.
 
CSA 105 said:
I've always found a common thread - life is cheap, money talks, bullshit walks, honour and loyalty take a backseat to greenbacks 80% of the time. 

And the threat of violence with the other thinking you have the will to use it is also an effective tool to persuade people.
 
Wesley  Down Under said:
Sorry mate, I tend to agree here. Corruption is rife. Thats one of the big issues in the whole bloody culture, whether whatever one does to exist.

At the end of the day we all can agree they don't think like we do, nor can we expect them to.

Cheers mate,


Wes

Wes,

  You CANNOT equate the ANA to the IA and IP.  Secondly in my AO the ISP (both IA and IP) have been quite reliable and ruthless dealing with insurgents.
 
Wes,

  You CANNOT equate the ANA to the IA and IP.

+1, Though I've never worked with Iraqis.

As far as the ANA go, their hearts are truly in this fight. And though they might be rough around the edges, but they ARE an effective force in Afghanistan.
 
Kev, just going by my experience, especially how Irish changed when the yanks handed it back. Then there was the surrounding areas we patrolled too.  I have been gone since the end of March, and I can't see much changing.

Ran into some crack NIA SF at the Crossed Swords one day, which I am sure I posted about on here somewhere. US weapons, US Army SF advisors. Spoke english well too. Have some good pics which are too big to post on here or I would have. Would not want to engage them. I would say only a minority of the IA are competant, while the majority of conscripts are what I described. Officers SNCOs and NCOs dont go through the same type of training as us. All IMHO.

The culture of how they operate, their concept of time, and how arabs just do things amoung themselves is completely different to how we are. Generations exposed to a lifestyle many cannot comprehend in the west. You're still there, I am not, so I think you know where I am coming from.

Afghans are not arabs, but tribal, and similar to others in the region. War is a way of life for them, so when there is no interference from outside countries, they war with themselves. Hence 3rd world, poverty, corruption and all that holds hands with such. Not much as changed in decades.

I have no personal ANA experience or AFG experience. It all comes from my Unit and others freshly back, or who are there right now. I was not there, and from what I have been told, and read here, overall, plus the culture, which is not much different from Iraq, Iran and other countries in the region in my opinion, leaves me to conclude what I have said. Some ANA in my opinion may be cutting it, but I feel many are not pulling their weight.

I would never question NIA/IP being ruthless, both sides are that hands down. Street justice, torture, intimadation, threats, etc. Life goes on.

The point being, would you trust them with your life as you would trust one of our own? Me, sorry no way! Blood is thicker than water. Loyalty in this region is the flavour of the month. Always will be. One day, this war will end for us, when the time comes to pull out, we'll see how long both the NIA/IP in Iraq, and ANA in Afghanistan hold out before things go pear shaped from within.

Remember its just my opinion based on what I have personally had. Nothing written in stone.

Many CF mbrs on here have both good and bad things to say about the ANA, and thats based on their experiences with them.

Stay safe and enjoy your well deserved upcoming holiday.


Cheers,

Wes
 
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