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Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

Colin Parkinson

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suffolkowner said:
That sounds about right though 3 yards at a ship a year each gives you 90 ships over 30 years, then start over. Might be some ongoing issues for the first 30 year cycle but if the government stays the course we should end up with a logical progression plan. History suggests that wont happen but I can hope.

The costing has never made any sense on this program partly due to funding yard modernization, but mostly since the government seems to have given away its negotiating leverage. Perhaps going forward it would be wiser for the yards to have to actually submit/compete among each other for the work. Probably the only comparable on ship construction would come from South Korea as it seems that every other national endeavor seems to have subsidies buried in there somewhere.

Lots of questions and concerns about the NSS but more about the execution than the premise.

Hopefully these next two AOPS don't cost more than the sixth one? Usually it is claimed that shipbuilding cost go down over longer production runs
Meanwhile Seaspan is building the AOR without a contract in place!
Does a 2:6 ratio of AOPS for the CCG:RCN even make sense?
To me they should almost be reversed. Correct me if I am wrong but does not the CCG only have 6 ships with a greater Ice Class than the AOPS?

Years ago I was told by Minister O'Connor that it would be impossible for the ship construction assignments to be switched between Irving and Seaspan due to the commitments already made and that the ship yard modernization completed prohibited the ability of Irving for example building the AOR's. I did not believe it then and I do not today, but most of what i know about ships I have learned from this site.

Ice classes are confusing and in a previous post I did it appears the AOPS are rated less than the current 1100 class  (Black, Pearkes) which are the current multi-task ships. The Multi task ships have a dual hook 10 ton crane, fast rescue boat, deep hold with between decks for storing buoys, chains, anchors and other stores, plus a hanger for a helicopter.
 

MarkOttawa

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Suffolkowner: To repeat:

In 2015 cost of five RCN A/OPS from Irving was $3.5B or $700M each:
https://www.cgai.ca2015_status_report_on_major_defence_equipment_procurements#ArcticOffshorePatrolShip

Sixth ship added and cost went to $4.3B, last ship most expensive (!) at $800M:
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/arctic-offshore-patrol-ships.html

Cost of two more for CCG "Under review":
https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/projets-projects-eng.html#s7

So the costing for Justin's big 18 new vessels for CCG announced May 22 is thin to say the least. Last minute effort to buy votes without proper procurement groundwork having been done.
https://milnet.ca/forums/threads/64037/post-1572562.html#msg1572562

Mark
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Colin Parkinson

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Shocked I tell you, shocked that no groundwork has been done.......

He is trying to buy us with our money. 
 

chrisf

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Colin P said:
Ice classes are confusing and in a previous post I did it appears the AOPS are rated less than the current 1100 class  (Black, Pearkes) which are the current multi-task ships. The Multi task ships have a dual hook 10 ton crane, fast rescue boat, deep hold with between decks for storing buoys, chains, anchors and other stores, plus a hanger for a helicopter.

The Canadian government has a weird way of ice classing ships, based on zones of the Canadian arctic/periods of entry.

The AOPS are PC5, but they're billing it as "PC5+".

The short description of PC5 is first year ice, which arguably puts them at about the same as the 1100 class ice breakers, which only operate solo in first year ice.

It's got to be a purely political decision, the AOPS are a foolish buy for the coast guard.

They're not really suitable to replace any of the multi-role ice breakers, they'd be limited in what they can do in other roles the only ships I can see them being suitable to to replace are the Cygnus and the Cape Roger, but but neither are ice breakers or have any ice breaker tasking, so it's a lot of hull/power you don't need, plus ice breaker hulls typically make terrible sea boats, both the cygnus and the cape roger regularly find themselves in severe weather on a grand banks.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Wiki lists the AOPS as PC- 5= Year-round operation in medium first-year ice, which may include old ice inclusions

Wiki lists the 1100 class as Arctic class 2 = Appears to be equivalent to PC -3 = Year-round operation in second-year ice, which may include multi-year ice inclusions

Wiki lists the Radisson as Arctic Class 3 =Appears to be equivalent to PC -2 = Year-round operation in moderate multi-year ice conditions

Sources = Wiki and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_Class

http://www.engr.mun.ca/~cdaley/8074/Ice%20Class%20Rules_CD.pdf

Keep in mind that surveys of the current ships conditions might have downgraded their ice class based on the hull condition of these ships which all have been well used.
 

chrisf

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Colin P said:
Wiki lists the AOPS as PC- 5= Year-round operation in medium first-year ice, which may include old ice inclusions

Wiki lists the 1100 class as Arctic class 2 = Appears to be equivalent to PC -3 = Year-round operation in second-year ice, which may include multi-year ice inclusions

Wiki lists the Radisson as Arctic Class 3 =Appears to be equivalent to PC -2 = Year-round operation in moderate multi-year ice conditions

Sources = Wiki and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_Class

http://www.engr.mun.ca/~cdaley/8074/Ice%20Class%20Rules_CD.pdf

Keep in mind that surveys of the current ships conditions might have downgraded their ice class based on the hull condition of these ships which all have been well used.

The 1100 class ships were designed as Arctic 2, however early in their life in was found they were/are not suitable for arctic operations after suffering damage in ice conditions they were classed for.

Presently they are only operated in seasonal/first year ice... one of the goals of the future life extension project is to bring the weaker portions of the hull *up* to a PC5 standard.

Assuming the AOPS meets their design specifications, they should be roughly equivilent to the 1100 class ships.
 

suffolkowner

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I think the PC5+ is because the bow is PC4 and the hull is PC5

The numbers all around don't make a lot of sense. Mark I was just using the construction costs not the so called design cost etc.
 

Underway

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suffolkowner said:
I think the PC5+ is because the bow is PC4 and the hull is PC5

The numbers all around don't make a lot of sense. Mark I was just using the construction costs not the so called design cost etc.

Something like that.  The engineers who were working on the project did a presentation for one of my courses.  Told us that they strengthened specific parts (mainly front end) of the ship beyond PC5 "just in case".  Helps with ice inclusions apparently and will also help the new CO's as they learn a bit more about how to recognize ice strength etc...  They made us (jokingly) promise to never tell the watchkeepers this information.

Wiki is off on this particular ship, but that's ok.  For all intents and purposes they are PC5.
 

Underway

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Underway said:
Something like that.  The engineers who were working on the project did a presentation for one of my courses.  Told us that they strengthened specific parts (mainly front end) of the ship beyond PC5 "just in case".  Helps with ice inclusions apparently and will also help the new CO's as they learn a bit more about how to recognize ice strength etc...  They made us (jokingly) promise to never tell the watchkeepers this information.

Wiki is off on this particular ship, but that's ok.  For all intents and purposes they are PC5.

Some info I learned today as the project moves forward:

-PC4 icebreaking bow and stern.  PC5 everywhere else.

-Ship is designed to break ice "for other ships" like a proper icebreaker, however the RCN will not be doing this except for our own assets in extremis.  The RCN is very aware of our lack of institutional knowledge in this aspect.  This ties into better Coast Guard usage for the last two built.

-Ship is designed to implement a rocking motion from side to side to about a 10 degree list in order to shake itself free of ice

-The Bull Sub onboard Harry DeWolf has been (un)officially christened "The Wolf Cub"  (love it when new traditions start) instead of the Bull Sub

-looks like the HDW will be turned over to the navy in Oct.  She's going into drydock shortly to fix those welds that were spoken about before, and repaint the bottom of the hull as she's losing antifouling paint

-Wardroom is the largest mess, which as a wardroom member is mildly embarrassing. I assume this is by design as the wardroom may be expected to host all the events that are normally held in the hangar/flight deck, as well as host all the civilians that are expected to ride with AOPV on its various OGD missions.
 

Stoker

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Underway said:
Some info I learned today as the project moves forward:

-PC4 icebreaking bow and stern.  PC5 everywhere else.

-Ship is designed to break ice "for other ships" like a proper icebreaker, however the RCN will not be doing this except for our own assets in extremis.  The RCN is very aware of our lack of institutional knowledge in this aspect.  This ties into better Coast Guard usage for the last two built.

-Ship is designed to implement a rocking motion from side to side to about a 10 degree list in order to shake itself free of ice

-The Bull Sub onboard Harry DeWolf has been (un)officially christened "The Wolf Cub"  (love it when new traditions start) instead of the Bull Sub

-looks like the HDW will be turned over to the navy in Oct.  She's going into drydock shortly to fix those welds that were spoken about before, and repaint the bottom of the hull as she's losing antifouling paint

-Wardroom is the largest mess, which as a wardroom member is mildly embarrassing. I assume this is by design as the wardroom may be expected to host all the events that are normally held in the hangar/flight deck, as well as host all the civilians that are expected to ride with AOPV on its various OGD missions.

Good to hear. The heeling motion is from heeling tanks that push large amounts of water from side to side quickly to create the rocking motion. HMCS Labrador had a similar system.
 

Colin Parkinson

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From May 15th 3rd AOPs now has all keel blocks laid

D6nwnDfWsAABjqb.jpg:large
 

Uzlu

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Cloud Cover said:
What are the final tonnages?
Each vessel will have a length of 97m, beam of 19m, draught of 5.7m and a displacement of 5,800t.
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/harry-dewolf-class-arcticoffshore-patrol-ships-aops/
 

Underway

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Cloud Cover said:
Those ships look like monsters :) What are the final tonnages?

They look fat. Chipmunks with faces full of seeds or a pregnant guppy are images that come to mind when I look at them.  Function of those icebreaking lines.
Approx 6600 short tons full load last I heard. (which interestingly enough is close to 5800 long tons listed by Uzlu)
 

Czech_pivo

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Good article talking about the Russians plans for the Arctic and about the size of the nuclear ships that they'll be using to assert their sovereignty.  Completely dwarfs our attempts. 

"At 183 meters long, the Ural is the largest icebreaker in the world — but even larger ones are already in the planning stages."......"the Ural is powered by two nuclear reactors that won't need to be refuelled for almost seven years, giving the ship almost unlimited endurance."

  https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform/putin-arctic
 

MTShaw

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Czech_pivo said:
Good article talking about the Russians plans for the Arctic and about the size of the nuclear ships that they'll be using to assert their sovereignty.  Completely dwarfs our attempts. 

"At 183 meters long, the Ural is the largest icebreaker in the world — but even larger ones are already in the planning stages."......"the Ural is powered by two nuclear reactors that won't need to be refuelled for almost seven years, giving the ship almost unlimited endurance."

  https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform/putin-arctic

Russia’s ability to build any ships at all is greatly exaggerated.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Underway said:
Some info I learned today as the project moves forward:

-The Bull Sub onboard Harry DeWolf has been (un)officially christened "The Wolf Cub"  (love it when new traditions start) instead of the Bull Sub

What is a Bull Sub?

-Wardroom is the largest mess, which as a wardroom member is mildly embarrassing. I assume this is by design as the wardroom may be expected to host all the events that are normally held in the hangar/flight deck, as well as host all the civilians that are expected to ride with AOPV on its various OGD missions.

What are the messes for Jnr/Snr rates like? 

HDW is the only one in the water right now correct?
 

Pelorus

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Eye In The Sky said:
What is a Bull Sub?

An unofficial position (although codified to varying extents in different Wardroom mess constitutions) held by a Sub-Lieutenant on board. Typically a senior NWO SLt, although some ships open up the position to engineering and log.

From a mess perspective, they help the SLt cadre speak as a unified group (with numbers that can sway many mess votes) and act as a liaison between the SLts and the other parties in the Wardroom. They typically also have control over a "Bull Sub Chit", which is a standing authority to spend a predetermined amount of mess funds per month for social events or the like (in reality often tightly controlled by the XO).

From a divisional perspective, if the Bull Sub is a senior NWO SLt they will often act as the Navigating Officer's 2IC/Adjutant/Enforcer/etc. to assign taskings, compile admin for the division, etc. In a FG ship with 10-15 NWO SLts it becomes an important role to allow the NavO to have time to complete their non-divisional duties.
 
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