Are Corporals shown the respect they deserve by subordinates & superiors?

[Jarnhamar]

Perhaps a thread split is in order ... perhaps on the topic of :

Are Corporals shown the respect they deserve by subordinates & superiors?

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/91486.15


I would say no. The rank encompasses  to much variety.

Just thinking of some Corporals off hand.
1)  an amazing soldier IMO. Might have PLQ 1-5 but I don't think so. Did some raining in blackwater, is on tour doing CCP. I would be very surprised if he doesn't go over to the SF community when he gets home, I'm sure they'll invite him.
2) Corporal for life. He was promoted because he had time in and a QL4 comms course. He's basically a zombie and you're better off putting a young private fresh from DP1 in charge of a task (and this corporal)
3) Corporal with PLQ 1-5 but doesn't have a leadership bone in his body. He took the course for the pay check and will bend over backwards to avoid any sort of responsibility. The only time he speaks up is when there is shit jobs to do he'll try and pull rank to make privates and "non PLQ mods 1 to 5" do the work.  Again new privates often make better leaders than this corporal.
4)Corporal who has about 10 or 11 years in. One of the best if not thee best (junior) instructors at my unit. I go to him if I have questions about teaching.  If you ask me he teaches at a sgt's level and I'd probably rate him one of the top there to. Still a cpl because he only has PLQ mod 6 land.

Seems in the reserves and reg force (which is where I drew my examples from, too) that Corporal is a glorified private with extra pay who is either too low rank to take responsibility OR they get jerked around because someone hits them with "You're supposed to be an aspiring junior leader you need to take more responsibility".

I think it's too late now to change anything but if you ask me you should give a private the pay increases o fa corporal.  Give them Private IPC 0 through 6, Pte(6) being what a Cpl(4) makes now.  You become a Cpl when you are fully PLQ qualified with the pay of a MCpl+.  Get ride of the rank of MCpl and the next rank after Cpl is Sgt.




[Edit to add an "n" to 'show' in the title.]

 

[CallOfDuty]

I think it's too late now to change anything but if you ask me you should give a private the pay increases o fa corporal.  Give them Private IPC 0 through 6, Pte(6) being what a Cpl(4) makes now.  You become a Cpl when you are fully PLQ qualified with the pay of a MCpl+.  Get ride of the rank of MCpl and the next rank after Cpl is Sgt.

    I like this idea.  My unit is so short of people, that we often have corporals filling in the Sgts jobs.  Seems like a natural progression to me.  We have incompetent corporals and we have leader corporals, and we all know who will be getting the promotions when they come, so what does it matter if they have a maple leaf above the chevrons?

 

[Dissident]

What about the Specialist rank? It could be a quick fix. If you put all the Cpl with no to little leadership abilities in the specialist rank, where you get more money but get none of the leadership responsibility? Then you keep all the leaders as Cpl's on their way to becoming MCpl. If someone shows new potential they can get Cpl's from being a spec or get a chance at doing PLQ.

Hell, you could even go further and get a Spec 2, 3, 4 and all the way up.

But I swerved out of my lane at the beginning of this post.

 

[Occam]

What about the Specialist rank? It could be a quick fix. If you put all the Cpl with no to little leadership abilities in the specialist rank, where you get more money but get none of the leadership responsibility? Then you keep all the leaders as Cpl's on their way to becoming MCpl. If someone shows new potential they can get Cpl's from being a spec or get a chance at doing PLQ.

Hell, you could even go further and get a Spec 2, 3, 4 and all the way up.

Hey, that's a great idea!

We can call it TASK.....Trade Advancement for Skill and Knowledge  ;D

"The aim of PMO TASK was to come up with a compensation scheme for lateral progression for technical specialist that would permit rank to be returned to its original use as a designator of supervisory responsibility.  This would also allow for the mid-career recruitment of trained specialist, thereby easing the strain of internal technical schools.  A Development Study Report was submitted in 1989  and work continued on the concept into the early 1990s but the project was never approved.  Rumors as to the reason for its demise implied that the study recommendations could not be implemented because they were going against the warrior ethos.  The proposed compensation structure would see members of the same rank getting better paid the further away from the battlefield their employment entailed."1

1Making the Grade: Rank in Post-Modern Military Hierarchies

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Sadly, Corporals don't fall under the same umbrella all the time, and the system in place kills the possibility of recognising leadership potential.

Just as some food for thought, lets see what some people think of this scenario of 3 Corporals in the same outfit:

Example A: Cpl Bloggins takes responsibility for the det/section when MCpl is away. He manages the duties and daily tasks of the group and ensures everyone is well taken care of, even if it comes before his personal welfare. He receives glowing PERs and has received a CO's commendation. Cpl Bloggins has 2 and a half years in rank and has no PLQ mods.

Example B: Cpl Dumptruck is in a posting slump and has dodged taskings for the past 6 months. Cpl Dumptruck has also been spoken to numerous times for picking on numerous Privates and is on RW for being late. His latest PER is less than favourable. He recently completed his PLQ Mod 6 and has 7 years in rank. 

Example C: Cpl Greyman shows up to work everyday on time. He doesn't take much of an interest in the day to day operation of his section, but knows enough to fill in when needed. He has a working rapport with his subordinates, but usually resorts to asking politely for tasks to be done instead of properly delegating tasks. His PERs are decent, and he has merited at the middle of the promotable pack. Cpl Greyman has 3 years in rank, and has completed his mods 1-5 and Mod 6.

With the current meriting system, who gets promoted? Who should be promoted? How does the current system screw those deserving, and promote the undeserving on technicality?

 

[ballz]

Sadly, Corporals don't fall under the same umbrella all the time, and the system in place kills the possibility of recognising leadership potential.

Just as some food for thought, lets see what some people think of this scenario of 3 Corporals in the same outfit:

Example A: Cpl Bloggins takes responsibility for the det/section when MCpl is away. He manages the duties and daily tasks of the group and ensures everyone is well taken care of, even if it comes before his personal welfare. He receives glowing PERs and has received a CO's commendation. Cpl Bloggins has 2 and a half years in rank and has no PLQ mods.

Example B: Cpl Dumptruck is in a posting slump and has dodged taskings for the past 6 months. Cpl Dumptruck has also been spoken to numerous times for picking on numerous Privates and is on RW for being late. His latest PER is less than favourable. He recently completed his PLQ Mod 6 and has 7 years in rank. 

Example C: Cpl Greyman shows up to work everyday on time. He doesn't take much of an interest in the day to day operation of his section, but knows enough to fill in when needed. He has a working re pore with his subordinates, but usually resorts to asking politely for tasks to be done instead of properly delegating tasks. His PERs are decent, and he has merited at the middle of the promotable pack. Cpl Greyman has 3 years in rank, and has completed his mods 1-5 and Mod 6.

With the current meriting system, who gets promoted? Who should be promoted? How does the current system screw those deserving, and promote the undeserving on technicality?

I don't know anything about anything so this is just a question/assumption/guess of an answer.

Wouldn't they just say "Cpl Bloggins, we're going to send you away until you come back with PLQ Mods 1-5" and then Cpl Bloggins disappears from the unit and comes back X weeks later as a MCpl and yada yada

Seems like the right COA to me?

 

[dapaterson]

TASK was a good idea, but torpedoed by the Cbt Arms who refuse to admit that other trades have more marketable skills which therefore implies greater compensation.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I don't know anything about anything so this is just a question/assumption/guess of an answer.

Wouldn't they just say "Cpl Bloggins, we're going to send you away until you come back with PLQ Mods 1-5" and then Cpl Bloggins disappears from the unit and comes back X weeks later as a MCpl and yada yada

Seems like the right COA to me?

Nitpicky here but you need MOD1-5 +  MOD 6 inorder to be appointed to MCpl.......

 

[George Wallace]

Nitpicky here but you need MOD1-5 +  MOD 6 inorder to be appointed to MCpl.......

If only that were true.  How many Trades promote Cpls to MCpl Acting/Lacking?

 

[Nfld Sapper]

If only that were true.  How many Trades promote Cpls to MCpl Acting/Lacking?

True but most have what 2 yrs to get the required course(s) done?

 

[ballz]

Hehe, well as I said

I don't know anything about anything

;D

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Being that there are so many varibiables to this question, I choose to go with a couple of things that tell me what a Cpl is/should be across the CF.

1.  The CF rank structure.  In the CF, a Cpl is a Jnr NCO. 
2.  The definition of superior officer, as found in QR & O, Vol I, Chap 1, Art 1.02 - Definitions:

“superior officer” means any officer or non-commissioned member who, in relation to any other officer or non-commissioned member, is by the National Defence Act, or by regulations or custom of the service, authorized to give a lawful command to that other officer or non-commissioned member; (supérieur)*

Also, Cpls can be subordinate to other Cpls, and be their *superior officers* as per #2 above.  That is covered, I believe, in QR & O, Vol II, Chap 103, Art 103.16, Notes A, B & C.  If you are interested in what it says, go take a look at Art 103.16.

So that covers who a Cpl/LS has authority over from a bare-bones perspective in the CF.  Seems like a decent place to start.

Instead of talking about doing away with the MCpl rank, etc, which we know won't happen this FY, how about discussion on the day to day real-life stuff.

1.  Every rank in the CF has its own junior and senior members.  A brand new Sgt isn't treated the same way as a Sgt with X years in rank by his/her peer group.  Each rank has its own differences.  Same for MCpls, Capts, etc.  Why would it be any different for Cpls? 

2.  Cpl is a leadership rank.  Even if you aren't "in command" of your section/subunit, whatever, you are STILL expected to look out for your subordinates.  If you don't think so, you shouldn't be a Cpl IMO.  It is an implied AND expected duty with the rank, isn't it?  So, what I am suggesting is that SOME of the problems with Cpl's not getting the respect they deserve or whatever MIGHT be because it has become cultural for Cpls to NOT think of themselves as leaders.  Just because you aren't the Jnr C/S Cmdr and Sect 2 i/c doesn't mean you don't have a responsibility to supervise Jnr Cpls and Pte's in the performance of their duties.  So over the years, maybe we've caused our own situation, to a certain extent.  I'd love to hear arguments and feedback on that.

3.  Lead when you are supposed to lead, follow when you are supposed to follow.  Simple.  If you aren't the leader, be the performing follower.  If your Jack is a POS, I am sure the Sgts, WOs, etc will know that.  If you are focused on your POS MCpl, who is doing YOUR job?

4.  Cpl's are, IMO, the first line of the lowest level possible problem solving mechanism in the CF.  For all things.  Example:  by the bed DEU inspection.  In the room waiting inspection is 1 Pte and 1 Cpl.  Pte's name tag is not on correctly.  The Cpl isn't the crse snr, or staff.  Does he say "its not my problem to sort out"?  If you answered *yes*, this where you should find a mirror and jack up who you see in it.

Cpls are, IMO, only going to get the leadership they show they can handle.  So, in relation to the thread and its title, I for one say that, like all ranks in the CF, you will get the respect your performance rates.  That is something only you are responsible for.

The Cpl/LS rank in the CF is not unionized.   If you think you should be the Cpl that gets put in charge because you have 10 years TI as a Cpl, but the keener Cpl with 6 years in gets the task, maybe you should think about how your performance is.  Its safe to bet you aren't thought of as the best pers for the job by your immediate CoC.

I think many Cpl's mix up the idea of leadership at the Jnr ranks level with that of command. 

:2c:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Sadly, Corporals don't fall under the same umbrella all the time, and the system in place kills the possibility of recognising leadership potential.

I would suggest that the problem is the lower levels of leadership/the CoC.  As leaders, we are expected to "develop the leadership potential in our followers".

That isn't a 'system' problem unless it is systemic across the entire CF, IMO.  And I don't think it is, or has been.  Perhaps certain trades etc but where I came from that wasn't the case, it was the opposite.

 

[armyvern]

I can only add that in my trade, when I get a posting message in for a new to the section member it reads:

"Posn XXXXXX-66, Rank: Pte/Cpl"

IE: the posn can be filled by either a Pte or a Cpl - absolutley no differentiation.

BUT, I, as the supervisor, always ensure that I task all of my Cpls to "look after" small tasks within the section. Cpl so & so, you are tasked to oversee 'this' within the section etc etc. All pers within the section are advised as to who is responsable to look oversee what --- and I advise all others (either fellow Cpls or Ptes) that they are to address through the Cpl in charge of "X" as a first step should there be any issues. When I am advised of a problem in "area X" either by my higher-ups, a customer or other --- it is "Cpl X IC CTAT" that I first consult with.

I also rely on "Cpl X" to be my SME in whatever area ... Ie when my CoC (or a customer) poses a question to me about "area X" it is the Cpl that I refer them to or it is the Cpl from whom I seek the answers. They are the ones "doing" the job each day ... I am simply the person administering them. And, that Cpl always gets the "credit" for providing the answer. Always.

I don't shit all over Cpl X, but rather will point out ways he can do things differently, more effeciently etc. All of my Cpls get assesed on their "supervisory" skills. All of them have opportunity to excel (or not) and all of them have the benefit of gaining leadership experience however small that task may be. It's the way that I go about ensuring they have opportunity to develop those skillsets which are necessary to succeed as they move up the food chain.

I believe that that is my job as a supervisor. I believe that is respectful. Likewise whenever any one of my subordinates comes to me with a problem (no matter the rank), I listen, advise, or action as appropriate. I'm a firm believer that respect begets respect. It's always a two way street.

 

[BinRat55]

I believe that that is my job as a supervisor. I believe that is respectful. Likewise whenever any one of my subordinates comes to me with a problem (no matter the rank), I listen, advise, or action as appropriate. I'm a firm believer that respect begets respect. It's always a two way street.

Vern, I know how you hate the "+1" comment, but I just gotta (with an addition of course!!)

| agree wholeheartedly. I have taken the worst from when you and I were Ptes / Cpls and remembered how I was treated and how I felt (you had some very hard times) and vowed never to treat my subordinates OR peers that way. We may not be a democracy, but dammit - we can definately have dignity. Fairness, equality and going that extra step for those who work for you will always work in both favors.

 

[time expired]

Has there been a change in the rank of Cpl.?.In 1967 I was" promoted"to the
rank of Hellyer corporal from old army L/Cpl. and we were left in no doubt that
our new rank was not a rank of authority or leadership and we were nothing
but glorified privates,even the M/Cpl. rank when it was established spent a
couple of years in a form of authority limbo until it was clarified as a replacement for        the old Cpl. rank.As one can imagine confusion reigned and discipline suffered.

The idea of a separate rank structure for speciality trades was instituted in the
US ARMY in the late 50s and it was found that having a Snr.NCO that could be
put in command of a box of wrenches but little else was of little use and did
nothing for the image of the rank,and was quietly phased out.
                                            Regards

 

[CountDC]

True but most have what 2 yrs to get the required course(s) done?

:rofl:

Just in the last few months I have seen plenty of messages dropping members back to no leaf due to the fact they could not pass the PLQ....after as much as 5 years as a master.  The 2 year rule is only applicable if the required course is available to the member and they fail to complete it. With the high number of actings there is a long list waiting for the course. I suspect some trades may not be loading the actings until they are getting ready to promote them to sgt.

Myself, never been a fan of the acting master - to me you should be fully qualified before being put into the leadership role.

 

[gcclarke]

Myself, never been a fan of the acting master - to me you should be fully qualified before being put into the leadership role.

The way I see it, it's the other way around. Someone isn't getting promoted Acting MS / MCpl in order to put them into a leadership role. They're made acting lacking to acknowledge the fact that they have already been put into a leadership role. The PLQ course isn't what makes them a leader. It may make them a better leader, but it requires an existing base of leadership ability to build upon.

And, of course, it also serves a secondary function of filtering out those whose leadership skills have not yet developed to the point where they should be made a full MS / MCpl. One would hope that this would be a relatively small portion of people who are Acting Lacking.

 

[CountDC]

The way I see it, it's the other way around. Someone isn't getting promoted Acting MS / MCpl in order to put them into a leadership role. They're made acting lacking to acknowledge the fact that they have already been put into a leadership role. The PLQ course isn't what makes them a leader. It may make them a better leader, but it requires an existing base of leadership ability to build upon.

And, of course, it also serves a secondary function of filtering out those whose leadership skills have not yet developed to the point where they should be made a full MS / MCpl. One would hope that this would be a relatively small portion of people who are Acting Lacking.

A/L Masters I know of were promoted based only on their PERs which we all know how well that works.  I don't think the PLQ makes the person a leader or even really a better leader - it is a screening tool to see if the member has the leadership in them plus teaches them the standard military way of doing things. Great for screening out some of those with the inflated PERS too. Unfortunately I am in a position where I see AR's every month with the result of members losing their leaf.  I gave up my leaf which was hard after so many years, I cannot imagine what it must be like to have it taken away after 5 years because you are unable to pass the PLQ. I do not believe the military is really doing itself or the members a real favour when they continue to do this.  If the member is merit listing high enough then get them on the PLQ and appoint them masters.

Maybe I am just a bit jaded after seeing so many dropped. I mean think about it, these people have been MASTERS for several years, built their family finances based on it, developed their career around it, maybe got great PERs and were expecting to get promoted.  Then the PLQ hits and for whatever reason they are simply not able to pass it.  Now the family income is dropped from MCpl(2) to Cpl(2), they will never get that promotion, they have been embarassed in front of family, friends and peers.  Bet that feels real good.  Talk about a motivator for taking the pension and running.

 

[George Wallace]

....... I do not believe the military is really doing itself or the members a real favour when they continue to do this.  If the member is merit listing high enough then get them on the PLQ and appoint them masters.

Exactly.  It never stopped boggling my mind how some Trades and Career Managers allowed this.  I think that the RMS Trade is probably the worse offender and suffering the worse due to this practice.  Some of these Trades are appointing people to positions as 5B MCpls, and not even requiring their pers to be qualified 5A.......Making up shortages in supervisory ranks in this manner does not do the people put into those positions any justice, and literally is gearing them up for failure.