Are Corporals shown the respect they deserve by subordinates & superiors?

[armyvern]

The way I see it, it's the other way around. Someone isn't getting promoted Acting MS / MCpl in order to put them into a leadership role. They're made acting lacking to acknowledge the fact that they have already been put into a leadership role. The PLQ course isn't what makes them a leader. It may make them a better leader, but it requires an existing base of leadership ability to build upon.

Uhhhmmmmm no. I'll guess that you're not in a trade where a mere "Ready" is earning someone an appt to MCpl these days ... 'nuff said. 

 

[ModlrMike]

The way I see it, it's the other way around. Someone isn't getting promoted Acting MS / MCpl in order to put them into a leadership role. They're made acting lacking to acknowledge the fact that they have already been put into a leadership role. The PLQ course isn't what makes them a leader. It may make them a better leader, but it requires an existing base of leadership ability to build upon.

And, of course, it also serves a secondary function of filtering out those whose leadership skills have not yet developed to the point where they should be made a full MS / MCpl. One would hope that this would be a relatively small portion of people who are Acting Lacking.

I would rephrase your observation to say that someone shouldn't be promoted A/MCpl ...etc.

 

[George Wallace]

Another little idiosyncrasy that I find that does not make any sense is the one where the Trades that are the worse offenders, are also the Trades that collect Spec Pay.  Why are we advance promoting persons in these Trades, if we are also compensating them for some “Technical Skills”?  Talk about redundancy.

 

[CorporalMajor]

Cpls are by definition, NCOs.  NCOs are by definition, able to issue orders, and they have that power for a reason.

We know that the rank is today a "two-hook Pte", IMO it's because that's often how they are treated...where I come from most of them are given a very small degree of actual responsibility. 

The other problem is that most of them don't act with that leader's initiative when they should, and I even admit to making that mistake on occasion.  There are times where I should have been more assertive.  In the P Res, it can also be a matter of lack of individual experience, but I digress.

Perhaps they should be taught how to actually lead, once at that rank?  Why not use that rank for what it was made.  Teach them a thing or two about leading/managing others, or how to take charge appropriately (thier superiors owe it to them). 

Give these men and women some real responsibility once promoted - and if they're worth that rank, they will learn.  It's not rocket science; leading people through your own experience is actually very easy, but that mentatility should be emphasised more strongly.  And, if you emphasise the leader role early on, they will be better prepared for PLQ and the MCpl appointment - and it will take a lot of workload off the overburdened MCpl/Sgt ranks.......my $0.02

 

[armyvern]

Cpls are by definition, NCOs.  NCOs are by definition, able to issue orders, and they have that power for a reason.

We know that the rank is today a "two-hook Pte", IMO it's because that's often how they are treated...where I come from most of them are given a very small degree of actual responsibility. 

They are also, by definition, Jr NCOs ... with limited powers of issuing orders.

That being said, I see you've got 2.5 years TI. I'm a dinosaur so I'll offer up my .02 cents worth.

Back in the early 90s (just before that decade of darkness began), I was a Pte(B) & a Pte(T) --- I put my damn heels together when I spoke to a Cpl ... and I addressed that Cpl by his/her rank - always. Then, just as I picked up my 2nd hook and actually became a Cpl ... the full weight of that decade of darkness came to bear down upon us.

No more pay raises. No more bullets on ex. And NO more Ptes being enlisted to actually be subordinate to us Corporals. My trade went years with exactly ZERO Ptes in our trade. Guess who then did all those small tasks that the Ptes used to do ... all the while still doing those tasks that the Cpls did. the Cpls. We were the very lowest of the food chain.

A few years later, when we slowly, extremely slowly, began to see Ptes trickle back into our trade - guess what the thought was? "Last week a Cpl did this job, this week a Pte is doing it." Ergo it's a Pte/Cpl position can be done by either/or ... and the Ptes certainly weren't about to put their heels together to a "co-worker" peer of theirs.

Just another legacy of that decade of darkness.

 

[Tow Tripod]

Are Corporals shown the respect they deserve?I would think that they would want to earn some respect first.In my platoon in Afghanistan many times the Privates outperformed the Corporal.Some Corporals are worth their wieght in gold for the section and platoon.Some others I wouldn't give the sweat off my brow of my head during a night patrol in Zhari District.Just my opinion on a touchy subject!!!

 

[CorporalMajor]

They are also, by definition, Jr NCOs ... with limited powers of issuing orders.

I know..  What I'm saying is that they can still be given MCpl-like tasks to prepare them for that appointment.  I've been behind the wheel when my I/C or Sect Comd was absent.  All it is, is "stepping up" and taking the initiative when necessary and I feel that it needs to be practiced more often than it has. 

We have lots of Ptes around, We also have a lot of Cpls, so that takes the value of the rank down, but it's only a matter of 1) selecting someone who shows the will to lead and putting that person in charge 2) everyone else at the same rank cooperating.  It happens sometimes, and it works, but again, why not practice this more often.  My unit has been having a serious deficit of SNR NCOs for the last year.  Everyone at that rank that could be filling those roles are going to Afg, even CTing....and there's not much of them left.  Which means that us juniors will have no choice but to step up. 

Are Corporals shown the respect they deserve?I would think that they would want to earn some respect first.In my platoon in Afghanistan many times the Privates outperformed the Corporal.Some Corporals are worth their wieght in gold for the section and platoon.Some others I wouldn't give the sweat off my brow of my head during a night patrol in Zhari District.Just my opinion on a touchy subject!!!

Rank and respect don't always follow hand in hand for me.  Don't limit it to my rank - I know some MCpls, and junior officers who couldn't lead their way out of a wet paper bag.  As well as many Snr NCOs who simply aren't trustworthy.  And some of them are in charge of us. 

You are absolutely right that respect should be earned.  But when it comes to the game of "Rock Paper Rank" I'm left with no choice but to trust and follow some person who I don't have a lot of confidence in...... I just grin and bear it. 

 

[armyvern]

Kid yourself not - I practise it all the time.

Unfortunately, that doesn't stop Cpl X from addressing Pte Y as "Timmy" all day long nor does it cause "Timmy" to stop calling Cpl X by the name of "Patricia".

I find that leadership works best when there's some rank involved ... and by that I mean the "using" of one's rank. It's hard to assist one in developing their "leadership" skills when then insist that "Timmy" is their "best friend".

I actually miss the old days when the MCpls had their own messes ... they earned their way into them and they had the ability to seperate from their subordinates - making the ability to actually "issue, maintain, and decide upon orders" a whole lot easier ... and a whole lot easier to have to deal within disciplinary issues when those same pers your were administering weren't drinking in the same mess as you were. We have craploads of MCpls that still manage to pull this off quite well, others not so much.

But, until the Pte/Cpl posn is clearly differentiated and seperated (ie they aren't officially "peers" in a posn that can be filled by either/or) any more ... I fear the lack of leadership courses and the "giving" of the Cpl rank after a min TIR vice merit ... means that some Cpls with no, and who will never have, leadership skills will continue to get tasked with "small" tasks. Some will excel at those and advance, others will not.

But to assume that because someone got their Cpls after 4 years time in, they should automaticly be availed of "supervisory" or "administering" of Ptes (some of whom may very well be a whole lot more competant - because they do do the same jobs) at an in-depth level just doesn't sit well with me.

Heck, in my trade a MCpl is considered to be (and actually is) a "working rank". They just happen to be the ones who get to work and do 90% of the admin in addition to all that work too ... earning a whole whopping (estimate here of not much) 75 bucks a month? THAT is the shittiest rank to be out there if you want my opinion.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Vern my pay raise from Cpl 3 to MCpl 3 was excatly $4.84

 

[armyvern]

Vern my pay raise from Cpl 3 to MCpl 3 was excatly $4.84

Apparently, I underestimated my "not much" then!!  :-X

 

[Nfld Sapper]

And when I go from MCpl 4 to Sgt 0 I get a $6.04 raise

Apparently, I underestimated my "not much" then!!  :-X

But Vern remember I make 20% (give or take)  less than you do.......

 

[armyvern]

And when I go from MCpl 4 to Sgt 0 I get a $6.04 raise

But Vern remember I make 20% (give or take)  less than you do.......

Well 20% of $6.04 ... ain't much. (But you're making a whole shitload lots less than me!!)

I'll buy the beer next time!  ;D

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Ah but remember I work off a daily pay rate not a monthly one.....

;D

 

[armyvern]

Ah but remember I work off a daily pay rate not a monthly one.....

;D

Ahhh, but remember that I am getting paid a monthly rate of pay at a rank a bit higher!!  >

 

[CountDC]

THAT is the shittiest rank to be out there if you want my opinion.

thanks    :crybaby:

 

[Jarnhamar]

I find that leadership works best when there's some rank involved ... and by that I mean the "using" of one's rank. It's hard to assist one in developing their "leadership" skills when then insist that "Timmy" is their "best friend".

I find when you work with someone day in and day out you develop a closer bond when you're not using rank. I always found the reserves TOO hung up on rank and last name

If I have my section and we're doing our thing I have them call me by my first name. I call them by their rank and last name until they they tell me to do other wise.  Heck tonight we're going out boozing, they owe me some mad dog shots for missing some "voluntary" PT.

If we're in the presence of warrant officers or higher they use my rank and I use theirs.  They know when to act the part.

If it's just section commanders I'll use the WOs name or LTs if we were friends before they commishioned etc..  If troops are around it's all rank and last name.  Some people are uncomfortable with that but it works for me so I do it.


I agree with the point that corporals often don't seek responsibility either and are quite happy to act as well paid privates.  I know there are junior and senior members of all ranks with various degrees of responsibility and authority but I find the biggest gap is in the rank of corporal.

 

[CallOfDuty]

wow, I could never imagine addressing one of my co-workers as " Corporal"!  However, there are the corporals that are more like Mcpls or Sgts in their responsibilities, and I do give them the respect they deserve.

 

[armyvern]

wow, I could never imagine addressing one of my co-workers as " Corporal"!  However, there are the corporals that are more like Mcpls or Sgts in their responsibilities, and I do give them the respect they deserve.

And that highlights what I'm talking about.

Until we "fix" the system whereby posns are no longer Pte/Cpl ... and differentiate between work area of 2 seperate ranks again ... they'll continue to be "co-workers" first and foremost. I can put Cpl X in charge of all I want within that section, but the day that Cpl X tries to "actually" administer or counsel "co-worker Pte X" (ie his best friend and co-worker vice his 'actual' subordinate) - the fur would be flying ... somtimes it's worse than two chicks in bikinis in a mud-wrassle gone horribly wrong.

 

[CallOfDuty]

  lol Vern!  I see it all the time.  Sometimes when a corporal starts to give out orders/demands etc, and that person walks away...it starts...." did you see bloggins acting like he's the boss??.....who does he think he is??....pfft...."
  Ain't saying it's right....but we are the worker bees, us Pte's and Corporals.
 

 

[Fusaki]

Until we "fix" the system whereby posns are no longer Pte/Cpl ... and differentiate between work area of 2 seperate ranks again ... they'll continue to be "co-workers" first and foremost. I can put Cpl X in charge of all I want within that section, but the day that Cpl X tries to "actually" administer or counsel "co-worker Pte X" (ie his best friend and co-worker vice his 'actual' subordinate) - the fur would be flying ... somtimes it's worse than two chicks in bikinis in a mud-wrassle gone horribly wrong.

So maybe the solution is to stop automatically promoting PTEs to CPL based solely on their TI.

CPL/PTE is considered a single rank because of the amount of CPLs who act like - and might as well be - PTEs.  You're not going to have a distinction between ranks until you eliminate this overlap.