Base Borden Armoured Corps Museum Hit by Budget Cuts

[Art Johnson]

Here's the bad news, from someone who was in Borden yesterday.

Both hangars that the tanks were in are gone. The vehicles are all sitting out in the open in an empty lot across from the museum. Next to go is the old RCAC Officer's Mess, even though it is a heritage building.

Looks like the Base Comd is keen to get things done quickly before any opposition can be mobilized. Reminds me of the Taliban and the stone Buddas some years ago.

Hard to believe this sort of thing is happening in 2004.

 

[onecat]

When anyone does something they know they shouldn‘t they want it done fast. I‘m disapointed that Base staff would let this go though without letting anyone know. But when has Canada, really respected it‘s past.

 

[winchable]

Are they allowed to destroy heritage buildings?
You‘re not even allowed to make any cosmetic changes (ie paint them different colours) I don‘t see how they could demolish one. I don‘t think it‘s a matter of should or shouldn‘t, I think it‘s a matter of Can or Can‘t, and in this case they can‘t!

Anymore info on that situation Art?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I doubt he did it with out the Corps knowledge. The Base Chief is a black hatter named Angus Gosse. I‘m sure there‘s more here than meets the eye. Has anyone bothered calling and asking?

 

[Art Johnson]

I received this reply from the RCAC Association today;
Dear Mr. Johnson:



Thank you for your note and referral to the Maple Leaf Up forum.



We are watching the evolution of the Base Borden Military Museum with some misgivings, despite assurances from authorities. The base spent nearly $1 million to recondition the E-line tank hangars several years ago, two of them specifically to house the AFV holdings. Concurrently, the RCAC Association, in co-operation with the DND Millennium Fund, launched a major AFV restoration project. To date some one dozen vehicles have been completely refurbished and plans exist to continue this important work.



Although the two hangars recently demolished were those destined to house the most important pieces of the collection, the most historically significant units are under cover elsewhere on the base. Anticipating possible changes in priorities, the completed AFVs were refinished in the latest epoxy resin, which should give several decades of outdoor service. This applies also to the future rehabilitation of the remaining 30-odd vehicles.



It is no secret that DND is starved for funds and this is translated into every possible economy A case in point is the south side aircraft hangar line, which despite national historic designation, is in the process of demolition. The RCAC hangars have no such protection(?). In these circumstances, it is likely uncharitable to accuse the base commander of indifference toward army artefacts. Though this association is disappointed in the actions being taken, our resources do not permit us to assist in underwriting museum operating costs, paramount among which is payments in lieu of taxes (PILT) to local township and county governments. We are advised that the tank hangar line costs the base some $250,000 annually for PILT. We are further advised that heating and maintenance costs account for another $100,000 each year.



This association continues to work with the base to overcome obstacles. Notwithstanding, it must be understood that the buildings and artefacts that comprise the Base Borden Military Museum are held by the base commander in right of the Crown and are wholly subject to his discretion.



Cordially,



D.W. Wright, Lt.-Col. (retd)

Secretary-Treasurer RCAC Assn

519-579-8424 Fax 519-579-9522

Web Site: www.rcaca.org

 

[Art Johnson]

Have a look at this web site it seems that DH&H are in charge but turn the responsibility over to the Base Commander who can set the priorities and do as he pleases. Kind of reminds you of all those paintings from the CWM that went astray. I wonder if some retired general will end up with a tank on his front lawn?

http://www.dnd.ca/hr/dhh/museums/engraph/home_e.asp?cat=4

 

[Slim]

Just a note.

The Canadian Author Farely Mowatt, who was the CO of the Canadian Forces war museum collection team was the one who organized and brought the collection of German vehicles back to Canada after WW2.

Slim

 

[1feral1]

The last time I was in Bordon was the winter of 94 (Jan)at CFSAL on a MSE Safety Coord Course.

Even though it was cold as helll, I walked around the armour collection, and saw it all from WW2 to East German T72‘s. I am sure the majority was outdoors. does teh worthington Collection sound right, or do i have my wires crossed? I did not see anything indoors at all, and if there was something, I would have haad a look, but I might have been misinformed. I spent most of my time studying or in the mess (beer).

I would be a sad day, if this collection was neglected and broken up. It should be moved somehow under cover of some kind to save it from the elements.

Hy what happened to the WW2 German armour which used to be a Shilo? They have all but vanished.

I was there in Sep 2000 for the ‘mother of all Octoberfests‘. The last German Army sponsored Octoberfest ever! Held at Shilo. Sure was a good time!

Cheers,

Wes

PS - I was hungover for 2 days

 

[patt]

what theres a RCAC Museum in Borden? i wanted to see it errr!!!

 

[gunner56]

I've only been here a short while(22Dec04),so I just read about the museum issue. I wonder what the ignorant wing wiper would say if we(RCAC) shot up an airbase.

 

[Zoomie]

I wonder what the ignorant wing wiper would say if we(RCAC) shot up an airbase.

I would say <being an ignorant wing wiper type>; "Why did you shoot up our airbase?"

Let's stay mature and keep this thread on track here.  The enclosed letter written above from the RCAC association clearly shows that it costs close to half a million dollars per annum to keep those two hangars open.  The base commander has responsibilities to ensure that he maintains the current CF infrastructure, any extra funds <if any> can then go towards historical preservation.

 

[gunner56]

My dad was a fighter pilot in WWII,my 1st father-in-law was an engine fitter in WWII,and though both have passed,they cherished their time in the AIR FORCE,and our country's military history.So much so,that my in-law did everything he could to preserve an intact Lancaster  which has since been restored to flying condition,and is known as MYNARSKI'S LANC. It can be seen at the CWH museum in Hamilton. My dad flew Hurricanes out of Gander,and told me of being greatly upset when 126 SQN's planes were scrapped in Rimouski,QC after the war. My point is that we must not allow our Gov't to treat our history so cavalierly.

 

[pbi]

I've only been here a short while(22Dec04),so I just read about the museum issue. I wonder what the ignorant wing wiper would say if we(RCAC) shot up an airbase.

Since Borden is not an Air Force command but a CFSTG command, how can you be so sure the BComd is an Air Force guy? Quite often they are Army. As well, given what I have seen of the extensive efforts the Air Force has made to preserve its own traditions, I doubt very much that the average Air Force officer of that rank would wilfully destroy the heritage of another service. Cheers.

 

[George Wallace]

Having worked in the Military Museum in Petawawa, dealt with DHH, DDSAL, and other CF Museums and Civilian Museums including the CWM, I have seen that they all have a common problem.  There are dedicated people in all these organizations, who like everwhere else in the CF and Public Service, are overworked, overtasked and overwhelmed with their attempts to preserve our Military Heritage.  Some CF Museums are doing quite well and others are not.  Where there is a large group of interested and creative/imaginative people to volunteer time, there is usually a good return for their labours.  In most cases, young Canadians on a whole, don't give a rats ar** about history or the preservation of anything historical.  The few who do run into nothing but frustration in their attempts to save bits of history. 

The various levels of Gov't in this country do not find Military history of value today.  They are very leery of putting any money into the preservation of Canada's Military History or Heritage.  Even the CWM is relying heavily on non-Governmental funding in building the new Canadian War Museum in Ottawa.

On an upside, these trends all seem to be cyclic.  Perhaps in a few years there will be much more interest in our Military Heritage.

GW

 

[Recce41]

George
Can you send me some names. I'll hit the Comt up on Monday. We are putting together the School/RCAC History walls and a Big WALL of REMEMBERANCE. I'll also bring it up to the RCD Asso. Someone around Borden, should be able to protect them. Even an open air covering, for each, would help.

 

[Bograt]

I find the title of this thread repugnant and divisive. It should read, "Budgets cuts to military forces museum to close."

 

[George Wallace]

George
Can you send me some names. I'll hit the Comt up on Monday. We are putting together the School/RCAC History walls and a Big WALL of REMEMBERANCE. I'll also bring it up to the RCD Asso. Someone around Borden, should be able to protect them. Even an open air covering, for each, would help.

Recce 41

Here is the main point of contact for the RCAC Assoc. and he is already working on the matter:


D.W. Wright, Lt.-Col. (retd)

Secretary-Treasurer RCAC Assn

519-579-8424 Fax 519-579-9522

Web Site:   www.rcaca.org


I am sure that since this topic started, it has been brought up at the RCAC and Cav Meetings earlier this year.   Money is a concern.   I believe that most of the money from the sale of the Corps History went into the maint of the vehs and museum in Borden.

Also, as far as I know Maj McNorgan is still in DHH.

GW

 

[Recce41]

George
All I knew about it was the money to redo the hangers. I don't get much from the Asso., even though I'm a member for many many yrs. Darn I hardly get anything from the RCD one.
But the Airborne one is on the ball.

 

[childs56]

The base commander wants a promotion. In order to do this he has to make it look like he has done a bang up job in cutting costs on his base. The people who suffer are the people who do not have a choice. The fact that this base commander has turned this base into a civie directed sports and training place is appalling. He cares very little about the people under his command and if it doesnt have dollar signs in it then he seems very un interested. One more example of another great commander and leader looking after the welfare of their Men and Women.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I had a guided tour of the tanks when they were indoors back in 2001 when I was on course for a month.  Tons of stuff inside, not just tanks.  And some of the tanks predated WW II, incidentally.  They were in the process then of being coated with the stuff referenced in the letter from the Association that Art posted on page 1.

The RCAC monument in Worthington Park was a disgrace; the gold lettering had been left to tarnish.  I did what I could with a can of brasso and at least got the corps badge to shine; wonder if anyone noticed?

How hard would it have been to leave a hangar in place?  If you empty it out and leave the vehicles inside, how is that not preferable to leaving the vehicles outside in the rain?