Bayonet obsolete? Not yet, apparently -

[pcain]

Platoon-scale bayonet charge was British Army's first since the Falklands:

Friday 18 March 2005      

telegraph.co.uk

'I bayoneted people. It was me or them'
By Michael Smith, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 18/03/2005)

The daring and bravery shown in Iraq by the men of 1 Bn, the Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment were so outstanding that their battlegroup receives no fewer than 37 of the honours awarded today.

They include 33 gallantry awards, among them the Victoria Cross awarded to Pte Johnson Beharry, two Conspicuous Gallantry Crosses, the second highest award for gallantry, 10 Military Crosses and 17 Mentions in Dispatches.

The succession of heroic actions under fire included the first bayonet charge since the Falklands Conflict and the 23-day defence of the former governor's residence in Amarah under siege from a continuous attack.

The gallantry awards have made the Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment (PWRR) the most decorated in the history of the British Army, with a total of 57 Victoria Crosses and a host of other medals.

Although formed in only 1992, it is the senior English regiment of the line, tracing its history back to 1572, and its forebear regiments have fought in virtually all the major campaigns in which the Army has taken part.

Lt-Col Matt Maer, CO of 1 Bn, the PWRR, described yesterday how his men were forced to fight every day for five months in Iraq, coming under 860 separate attacks, with 109 alone on one day.

On the first day of their deployment they found themselves drawn into a three-hour running battle with insurgents, he said. "We knew it was going to be a very long and very hot summer."

The steadfast defence by Y Company of the former provincial governor's residence in Amarah saw a number of Military Crosses awarded to the battlegroup, which also included Royal Welch Fusiliers.

Major Justin Featherstone, the Y company commander, who, despite repeatedly being told he could withdraw if he saw fit refused to do so, is among the 10 members of the battlegroup awarded the Military Cross.

But it was inevitably the bayonet charge, led by Sgt Chris Broome, from Trowbridge, Wilts, who is awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross, that captured the imagination.

The three-hour battle during which it took place began on May 14 last year when a dozen gunmen ambushed nine soldiers from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in a pair of armoured Land Rovers.

The Argylls were attacked on the road to Amarah, with insurgents repeatedly attacking the vehicles with small arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades.

The Land Rovers sped through the ambushes only to come upon two dozen insurgents putting together an improvised roadside bomb.

Two platoons of the PWRR, a total of 40 men in four Warrior armoured vehicles, were sent from nearby Camp Condor to hunt down the bombers.

When they saw the insurgents waiting in ambush in foxholes alongside the road, the four infantry sections in the Warriors, 28 men in all, dismounted, carried out a flanking manoeuvre and charged the insurgents with fixed bayonets.

Cpl Mark Byles, 34, from Portsmouth, who is awarded the Military Cross, said: "The look on their faces was utter shock. They were under the impression we were going to lie in our ditch, shoot from a distance and they would run away.

"I slashed people, rifle-butted them. I was punching and kicking. It was either me or them. It didn't seem real. Anybody can pull a trigger from a distance, but we got up close and personal."

 

[pcain]

telegraph.co.uk

Last charge for the bayonet - a victim of modern warfare
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 15/09/2002)

It defeated the Zulu Impi at Rourke's Drift, terrified the Germans in Flanders Fields and routed the Argentinians during the Falklands War.

Now the bayonet, one of the oldest weapons in the Army's arsenal, has been rendered redundant by the onset of modern technology. With the adoption of powerful new machine- guns and grenade launchers it is often impossible to use the bayonet in 21st century combat.

Units which served in Afghanistan have reported that in some cases only two out of every 10 soldiers would have been able to "fix bayonets", had the command been given.

Among the weapons used by British soldiers which were unsuitable for bayonets were the Belgian-made Minimi machine-gun and the M16 semi-automatic rifle.

It is not possible to fit any bayonet to the Minimi, while the MI6 can only take an American blade, which the British Army does not possess.

A third weapon used by the Army, the SA80 rifle, cannot be fitted with a bayonet if a grenade launcher is attached. Nor can a bayonet be used on the SA80 when the rifle grenade, a newly acquired weapon which differs from the grenade launcher, is fixed to the muzzle.

One Army officer explained: "It's fair to say that the bayonet is unlikely to see much service in future wars.

"You have to be realistic. The bayonet was designed for muskets because you could fire only one round before undergoing a complex reloading procedure.

"The bayonet gave the infantryman another weapon. Now you have 30 rounds in a magazine so things have moved on."

The bayonet has been an essential part of combat since it was invented in the French town of Bayonne, from which the term "bayonnette" - and hence bayonet - was derived in the mid-17th century.

In the intervening 350 years, the bayonet has undergone a number of variations but its purpose has remained consistent - to kill the enemy at close quarters.

The Scots Guards and The Parachute Regiment launched bayonet charges as recently as the Falklands conflict in 1982, when they stormed heavily fortified Argentinian positions.

"The bayonet charge remains one of the most frightening acts an enemy can face and there is nothing better to prepare your men for battle than issuing the order to fix bayonets," said a senior Army officer.

Ian McKay, a platoon sergeant in B Company 3 Para led a bayonet charge against a heavily fortified Argentinian bunker during the Battle of Mount Longdon.

He was killed in the assault, but was awarded a posthumous Victoria Cross for his valiant actions which later proved to be one of the turning points in the battle. Soldiers of the 2nd battalion Scots Guards used the bayonet when they ran out of ammunition as they attacked Argentine positions on Mount Tumbledown in June 1982.

Capt Henry Murray was also awarded a Victoria Cross for "conspicuous bravery" for leading a series of bayonet charges to prevent his company being overrun by Germans during the First World War battle of Stormy Trench in 1917.

Any attempt to abandon the bayonet is likely to meet stiff resistance from within the Army and especially from instructors at the Infantry Battle School which has a bayonet as its unit symbol.

One senior Army officer, said: "Bayonet charges are part of another military era but the weapon still has its uses and I would hate to see it withdrawn. It is a weapon of last resort, which it has been through the ages."

The first recorded history of the bayonet being used as a weapon was in 1647, when it was introduced into the French army.

It was a plug bayonet, a spear-like blade to which was attached a long conical plug inserted into the muzzle of the soldier's musket. The original bayonet had two basic design defects: the musket could not be fired once the bayonet was fitted, and during the act of fitting the soldier was virtually unarmed.

The effect of these defects were demonstrated in Killercrankle in 1689, when English troops were overwhelmed by a rush of Scottish Highlanders as they were fixing bayonets.

This led to the socket bayonet, which had the blade attached to a hollow sleeve and slipped over the muzzle of a musket. The blade lay below the axis of the barrel and left sufficient clearance to permit the weapon to be loaded and fired while the bayonet was fixed.

Although generally considered as the infantryman's assault weapon, the bayonet was originally a defensive tool against a sudden rush of cavalry.

With the arrival of a breech-loading and magazine-fed rifles, the infantryman was capable of defeating cavalry at a distance and the bayonet became primarily an offensive weapon.

A Ministry of Defence spokesman insisted that its policy of bayonet use had not been altered, but conceded that the weapon was no longer suitable for some of the Army's principal weapons.

"It is true that you cannot fix a bayonet to some weapons that were used in Afghanistan by the Royal Marines," he said.

"But soldiers and marines are still taught how to use the bayonet when they are undergoing basic training and that will continue."

 

[oyaguy]

With the personal weapons of frontline infantry getting lighter and smaller, wouldn't the bayonet be even more useful for close in fighting? Unlike a Lee-Enfield, a Lee-Metford, or a Brown Bess, a C7, or whatever variant, is rather light to use as a club. So wouldn't a bayonet be even more necessary? Not to mention the skivvy factor.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Whether it's obsolete or not, anything extra you can use, to your advantage, in a fight is worth it. These aren't schoolyard scraps, your trying to kill the other guy by any means possible. Nothings fair and there are no rules.

 

[Britney Spears]

Bayonets are obsolete. Its absurd that half the chest space on the TV is taken up by the silly bayonet mounting rig. Considering that only 4 troops in a Canadian section are equiped with a bayonet (in a British section, only 1 or 2 in 4 troops have bayonets) any "bayonet charge" today will be a  rather half hearted affair.

 

[Gunnerlove]

I will keep my bayonet as it is light and never runs out of ammo/jams when clearing a trench. 

 

[dw_1984]

Bayonets are obsolete.

Although some say the bayonet is obsolete, being the engr, I have to point out that landmines are not.  How many infanteers carry mineprodders?  Well then, guess what you'll be prodding w/.  The bayonet may not be as effective in its intended role as before, but now there are other uses for it.

 

[Britney Spears]

Well then, guess what you'll be prodding w/.

Umm, like a million other things? e.g. a cleaning rod?

So if YOU the keen sapper is never without your mine prodder, you obviously have no use for a bayonet then? 

 

[badpup]

Also may serve as a useful tool if you ever have to eat an American MRE  ;D

 

[dw_1984]

Umm, like a million other things? e.g. a cleaning rod?

So if YOU the keen sapper is never without your mine prodder, you obviously have no use for a bayonet then?  

What were you taught to use if there was a mine strike?  I believed it was covered in your SQ.  Your bayonet.  The cleaning rod is probably good as a back up trip wire feeler (just gota be more more careful w/ it because it's harder to feel tension).

Britney Spears, have you not read any of the posts in this thread?  I think it's been proven that the bayonet is still used in modern day combat (albeit much less than before).  PWRR's proved that in Iraq...still useful.  I'd be pissing my pants if a soldier yelling and screaming with bayonet affixed was running towards me.

 

[Britney Spears]

Sorry bub, I don't have  SQ.

I think it's been proven that the bayonet is still used in modern day combat (albeit much less than before).

No it hasn't.

I'd be pissing my pants if a soldier yelling and screaming with bayonet affixed was running towards me.

That's nice to know, did you learn that on SQ as well?

Heh, how fast can you run with a bayonet?

Faster than 2500ft/sec?

( Stole that one from my Plt WO on basic, god bless his soul.)

 

[dw_1984]

Sorry bub, I don't have   SQ.

No it hasn't.


That's nice to know, did you learn that on SQ as well?

Heh, how fast can you run with a bayonet?

Faster than 2500ft/sec?

( Stole that one from my Plt WO on basic, god bless his soul.)

Ok no SQ, then the old QL2 then.

Read my wording...it is still USED in modern combat...WHAT were the PWRR using...bayonets.  Therefore that negates your "No it hasn't."
The bayonet is part of your FFO.  Better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it.

So I supposed you wouldn't feel fear at all if you were face to face w/ a charging enemy.

 

[Britney Spears]

Better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it.

Heh, I say the same thing, except I'm talking about an extra 30 rd mag or 3. Weighs about the same as a bayonet. Wanna bet on who/which one  would win?

Read my wording...it is still USED in modern combat...WHAT were the PWRR using...bayonets.  Therefore that negates your "No it hasn't."

Good lord, I think we're done talking.

 

[dw_1984]

And I supposed you'll jerry rig this extra mag to replace where the bayonet goes?

You wanted to argue semantics.  I just played along.  I was simply stating there are other uses for a bayonet.  It's not dead weight.

I'll just leave this thread alone...I really want to know what others think about the usefulness of the bayonet, especially those who've been on roto.

 

[Armymedic]

one other good use for a bayonet, when mounted on the rifle, is for an improvised IV holder in the fd.....put the bayonet on, stick in down as far as you can, hook IV bag to buttstock.

It works and works well.

 

[Freddy Chef]

After clearing a trench, (empting your mag), you bayonet the enemy (bayonet affixed before assaulting the trench), to finish him/her off. Should anything happen while you are changing mags, you still have your bayonet affixed to deal with any other enemy within 3m.

 

[Canadian Sig]

Thats the only thing I saw it used for on Roto 0. An Eng MWO used his to dig up an old 105 shell.  :bullet:

 

[George Wallace]

Heh, I say the same thing, except I'm talking about an extra 30 rd mag or 3. Weighs about the same as a bayonet. Wanna bet on who/which one would win?

Now that is a pretty heavy bayonet you've got there......

 

[Kal]

Well, I don't believe anyone would want to use their bayonet as their primary weapon, anyone with half a brain at least.  As a field tool and last ditch weapon, the bayonet has it's place.  Although, I would assume it would be rather disheartening and traumatic to see the enemy charging if I were not ready for it.  If one trains or has become used to the enemy attacking in a similiar manner then gets a big wake-up call by something that would be the last thing they expected, which also happens to be maybe one of the most physcologically damning, it would take the fight out of them, if even a bit.  I know I would rather fight the enemy that would just shoot and arty from a distance then have to fight someone that would ambush and want to rip my throat out...

 

[Britney Spears]

I know I would rather fight the enemy that would just shoot and arty from a distance then have to fight someone that would ambush and want to rip my throat out...

Some of the quotes from this thread are absolutely astounding.

Exactly how many arty barrages have you been a victim of? You're comparing it to a bunch of guys running at you with pointy sticks?

Question to Kal and DingBat, give me an honest estimate of how many enemy soldiers, armed with loaded semi-auto rifles, you expect to be able to take out with an empty rifle and bayonet. Believe me they are not going to unload their rifles and engage you in a bayonet duel just because you only had 5 mags.

Side question: Have either of you actually ever recieved any formal bayonet training? Is this covered in the SQ course?

The Brits know al about this, that's why there are only 2 bayonets in a British section.