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Buying/selling Medals Superthread [merged]

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bulvyn
  • Start date Start date
That's just it, George; since they are pieces of history, there are many people out there prepared to pay for them - and share them by displaying them proudly, researching the original owner, etc.  Better to do that than see them thrown out with old uniforms and bumph because an aging widow or slacker offspring don't know what they are.

Someone on another board I frequent got hysterical about how veterans were selling medals to pay for operations or some such nonsense.  Most medals wouldn't be worth grocery money for a week.  This is simply not an issue, as you rightly point out.
 
Okay, I went ahead and merged the two topics - hope this doesn't cause confusion.  Really belongs in Current Affairs anyway, not History.
 
I believe that medals as such I mentioned, are part of a person's and the countries history and legacy. If I will my medals to my children or grandchildren, I do not want them to sell part of their families history to the highest bidder.

By allowing them to sell an honour awarded due to bravery or valour, cheapens the value of that award in the eyes of the public.

What was once an act of bravery becomes just another piece of metal attached to cloth once it sold. I saw a news article today about a collector who researches the medals and attempts to keep the history of the honours he purchased alive at least in his archive. This I can respect. But its not the place for that....

Why can't the Canadian War Museum have a wall of honour where all Canadian VC winners and their medals be displayed?

Just my humble opinion. I for one, want to see good come of this.
 
Armymedic said:
I
Why can't the Canadian War Museum have a wall of honour where all Canadian VC winners and their medals be displayed?

Don't they have this already?

At the AWM in Canberra they have a whole area dedicated to VC 'winners' from the humble beginnings of this nation to Viet Nam. Very inpressive display I might add.

Try www.awm.gov.au

Regards,

Wes
 
Armymedic said:
I believe that medals as such I mentioned, are part of a person's and the countries history and legacy. If I will my medals to my children or grandchildren, I do not want them to sell part of their families history to the highest bidder.

But how do you know they will have any interest in them?  Odds are good they will want to dispose of them.  If they can't sell them, guess what that means - either a museum, where your run of the mill awards will just collect dust, or the dumpster.

By allowing them to sell an honour awarded due to bravery or valour, cheapens the value of that award in the eyes of the public.

How so?  It's not like collectors wear these things to the mall; the serious collectors put them behind glass, with photos and personal documents to flesh out the history of the medal and its recipient.

What was once an act of bravery becomes just another piece of metal attached to cloth once it sold.

See above.  Far from it; we are not talking about bravery medals, but ALL medals.  300 CDs sitting on a shelf in a museum are just that - ribbon and metal.  A CD behind glass in someone's home, with a picture and a name to put to it, bring it to life.  Museums cannot do that for every artifact they have donated to them - probably 10 percent of any museum's holdings ever see the light of day.

I saw a news article today about a collector who researches the medals and attempts to keep the history of the honours he purchased alive at least in his archive. This I can respect. But its not the place for that....

This is exactly what we are talking about - who else would buy medals, if not a collector?

Why can't the Canadian War Museum have a wall of honour where all Canadian VC winners and their medals be displayed?

Because all Canadian VCs are owned by different people; museums, private collections, even foreign collections.  There is no law stating the CWM has to receive the medal after the VC holder passes on.  One of those freedom thingies they sacrificed for in the first place, if you ask me.

Just my humble opinion. I for one, want to see good come of this.

What possible good could it do?  I can't think of a single thing.

 
Much as I don't like the thought of the medals being sold I have to agree with Michael on this. Someone who puts out money to acquire the medal is more likely going to care for it than someone who, by law, must inherit it but in reality didn't even like Grampa and just wants the cash....everything else goes in that mouldy box in the basement.
 
First of all, the Topham family had to sell his VC because his widow died intestate, meaning his medals (including the VC) weren't willed to anyone in particular. Since they couldn't split up the collection, they had to convert it into something they could divide, ie: money.
Much as I hate to give credit to the current government, they appear to be doing something sensible about the prospect of Canadian VCs (or other significant medals, such as those of John McRae which were auctioned off year before last). They're supposedly considering changing the cultural heritage regulations to make it nigh impossible to export such medals. The War Museum or Heritage Canada would be given the first right of refusal to buy such medals before they could be shipped out of the country.
A much more realistic solution it seems to me. Vets or relatives could still sell medals if need be, even VCs, but they couldn't sell them outside Canada without government approval.
 
GGboy said:
First of all, the Topham family had to sell his VC because his widow died intestate, meaning his medals (including the VC) weren't willed to anyone in particular. Since they couldn't split up the collection, they had to convert it into something they could divide, ie: money.

Well, they could have just donated the medals to the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion Association, too.  But I guess getting donations from across Canada to pocket was just as good...I will admit 300,000 dollars is a lot of money, even when split (how many ways), but I can see where the NDP (or anyone) would be horrified at paying out to private individuals in such a case.  Banning sales is not the answer, unfortunately.  I'd rather see the medals leave Canada than see family members of intestate widows blackmailing taxpayers.
 
It's not exactly blackmail.  They had an offer for $300,000 from an overseas investor but agreed to let it go for $275,000 if the funds could be raised within Canada.  If they really wanted to blackmail the government they could have waited untill the $275,000 was raised, and then started a bidding war between the government and the foreign investor.
 
i have five generations of medals.......... spanning 88 years of service to this nation (1916-2002) and i will be dammed if they are ever to be sold for profit.......... they are family history......... not a bargaining chip to be held for ransom to the highest bidder.... if my nest of kin does not want them then they are to be given to the respective regiments for use in their museums.
 
...and that is completely within your right to do so.

Wouldn't we consider it unfair if the law was the opposite and all medals became property of the government once their owner was deceased - preventing you from inheriting an important part of your heritage?

Private property is an important privilege that we've gone to war to protect.  It's not surprising that the NDP would run it asunder.....
 
I agree with the Ban. But it should be fore external sales only. I collect Militaria, and would not sell for profit. Medals such as VCs should go to the War Museum. I would even go as far as a tax brake, for a true collector. I have friends that have complete Regts medals. I have my fathers and been give a number of uniforms. Some that are worth a couple of thousand. But will not part with.
 
Recce41 said:
I agree with the Ban. But it should be fore external sales only. I collect Militaria, and would not sell for profit. Medals such as VCs should go to the War Museum. I would even go as far as a tax brake, for a true collector. I have friends that have complete Regts medals. I have my fathers and been give a number of uniforms. Some that are worth a couple of thousand. But will not part with.

The same War Museum that lost Konowal's VC? 

So they can sit on a shelf collecting dust?
 
Now that these threads have merged, I'll remake a point that didn't make the transfer.

When these medals were awarded they were not meant to be transferable and certainly not to become a treasure trove to the winner's survivors.  I had thought that there were legal prohibitions against the original recipient selling decorations, all of them from the VC to CD.  I couldn't find any reference but perhaps looked in the wrong locations.

If the original member was prohibited, then it is no leap to infer that any monetary transfer by anyone should be illegal as well.

So perhaps there's some merit to the NDP's proposed legislation....
 
Worn Out Grunt said:
Now that these threads have merged, I'll remake a point that didn't make the transfer.

When these medals were awarded they were not meant to be transferable and certainly not to become a treasure trove to the winner's survivors.  I had thought that there were legal prohibitions against the original recipient selling decorations, all of them from the VC to CD.  I couldn't find any reference but perhaps looked in the wrong locations.

If the original member was prohibited, then it is no leap to infer that any monetary transfer by anyone should be illegal as well.

So perhaps there's some merit to the NDP's proposed legislation....

The only legislation is the NDA; and it only applies to serving members.


116. Every person who:

(c) sells, pawns or otherwise disposes of any cross, medal, insignia or other decoration granted by or with the approval of Her Majesty,

is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for less than two years or to less punishment.


Source/link: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/n-5/84849.html
 
I think too many of you are letting emotion get in the way of common sense.

You value your medals and treat them accordingly, but this doesn't mean that everybody must also view these little pieces of ribbon and metal with the same veneration.   It is the private property of whoever is awarded it - so why must we insist on hammering people with legislation on how they shall dispense with what they earned?  What happens if the guy didn't like the things and just chucked them in the garbage (or lost them)?  Would you put him in the brig for "destroying Canadian heritage and culture"?  Sheila Copps would love to have you on her team.

Should we put legislation on what I can do with my Grade 11 honor roll certificate as well?   Unless the government decides to start issuing medals and having a soldier sign is MMM out from the QM, people (and the NDP) should back off and mind their own business.

If it really bothers you, give your medals to a museum - then you can have the satisfaction that Canadian "heritage" has somehow been preserved....
 
Infanteer

You are trivializing the matter a bit too much.

What part of history I may have played with my CD1 may in fact be insignificant in the whole of the Nations' history, however, should I have been a VC winner, then the significance of my contributions to the Nations' history would be all that more important to preserve.  There is a graduated scale by which we must look at this matter.  Some will naturally have more precedence over the majority of other more common awards. 

Medals or Awards presented for some significant act in our history should be of National importance and pride and preserved as such.  They transend the 'Family' historical value and become more of a 'National treasure' in a way.

It is a bit of an "old guy thing' to start to worry about our history, as the young seem to think more about themselves and not worry too much of the changes they want to inflict on the world.  :o

GW
 
Infanteer made the Honour Roll?  ???

The poor dear has been waiting 5 years to brag about that on this board; I admire his restraint...only 3600 posts first...  ;D
 
If the sale and trade of any medals are restricted in Canada, that law will only be effective in Canada. As Mike D. notes, many medals wll then end up sitting in dusty back rooms of museums across the country abd be forgotten because of the lack of resources and space to research and display them. Others, perhaps too many others, will then leave the country by whatever means to places where there are still collectors that assign them monetary value, collectors who wil not be bound by Canadian law. The ones that go will be those that any such legistaltion will be aimed at keeping in place.

How then, would the proponents of such a scheme to limit the sale of medals control this? Shall we register them as was done with firearms?

I suspect the number of medals that were sold by vets to pay for medicine, etc., is very small. Many others that circulate, divorced from the documents that would provcide them a place, time and serviceman's name in our collective history, would not be out there if the average Canadian had felt any sentimental value attributed to them because of Dad's or Granddad's service.

It is sad that the history of so many of these medals has been lost. It would be even sadder of the collecting community had not preserved the many medals that it has, and continued to do the research to bring more of them, and their associated history to light.

Banning trade in medals or other militaria would weaken the collective understanding of our history, not strengthen it. If Parliament wants to support the memory of Canadian veterans and their collective sacrifice, better a motion to aid and support the return of medals to Canadian soil, for example; making the importation of Canadian medals exempt from import duties. Assisting the repatriation of medals is a far stronger statement of commitment to their memory than invoking legislation that will drive the collecting markets underground.
 
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