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CAF Sexual Misconduct PR War- Swerved Into a Mess Discussion

No surprise and pretty much expected. The SMSRC seems to be picking up speed in its delivery and the upcoming zoom discussion on April 11 will be interesting. Curious if Lise Bourgon will be attending and ask for "more positive" stories from MST survivors to help recruiting efforts again...

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Milnet.ca Staff
 
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I’m pretty sure it’s similar to army messes. They are not dictated to by the provinces but the powers that be in the CAF decided to abide by local by laws and regulations. So we voluntarily (sort of) agreed to follow those rules. Nothing was imposed by the province.
The CAF in many domains chooses to respect provincial legislation, as it's a path of least resistance, simplifies hiring civilians with requisite skills, and removes the requirement for any DND or CAF personnel to provide policy oversight.
I’d argue that that can make sense for a base that is physically located in the province.
But last time I looked the ships of the RCN were not permanent fixtures tied to a province.
They sail around the globe, and as such should probably have a GoC defined policy that doesn’t require the license of a specific province.
 
When alongside, they would probably have to respect provincial regulations, if only for reasons of supply. So stick with a single ruleset throughout for simplicity.
 
When alongside, they would probably have to respect provincial regulations, if only for reasons of supply. So stick with a single ruleset throughout for simplicity.
Meh, just send a boarding party to the local Liquor and Beer stores and ‘Open Up in the name of the King’ ;)

Technically the CAF can make whatever regulations they want on DND property (as long as it survives a shorter challenge).

Years ago CO’s were allowed to authorize members to carry firearms off base/off duty — I suspect the NDA got rid of that.
*Was a knock on me during an officer board when I answered one reason I wanted to be an Officer was so as a CO I could issue myself a pistol to walk around with ;)
** the Major on the board that torpedoed got nailed later with a lot of live ammo in his pistol and rifle on a blank ex… go figure.
 
I’d argue that that can make sense for a base that is physically located in the province.
But last time I looked the ships of the RCN were not permanent fixtures tied to a province.
They sail around the globe, and as such should probably have a GoC defined policy that doesn’t require the license of a specific province.
Yeah. I was just pointing out that it wasn’t the provinces imposing anything. It’s self inflicted mostly.
 
I’m pretty sure it’s similar to army messes. They are not dictated to by the provinces but the powers that be in the CAF decided to abide by local by laws and regulations. So we voluntarily (sort of) agreed to follow those rules. Nothing was imposed by the province.

Actually, the liquor laws/regulations of all the provinces do (or did) specifically provide separate categories of licenses for military messes or canteens.

Classes of club license
10 The following are the 2 classes of club licenses:
(a) a class A club license;
(b) a class B club license.

Eligibility for club license
11 (1) A class A club license may be granted or renewed by the Executive Director only to an applicant that is a club or association operated for objects other than monetary gain and that can demonstrate that the club or association has been active for at least 1 year before the date of their application.
(2) A class B club license may be granted or renewed by the Executive Director only if the proposed licensed premises are under the direction of one of the following:
(a) the Canadian Forces;
(b) the Royal Canadian Mounted Police;
(c) the Canadian Coast Guard.

Military licenses
86 A military license held by a person on the day before these regulations come into force is deemed to be a class B club license and remains valid until its expiry date.

The military (or any other johnny for that matter) are/were required to abide by provincial liquor regulations because the provincial governments effectively have a monopoly on the sale of alcoholic beverages. If one wants to purchase spirits for resale, they have to buy it through the provincial liquor boards, though that has been modified somewhat in those jurisdiction that off-load sales to private business. But the regulations (which affects both seller and buyer) state that a license is required to purchase alcohol for resale.

And the law that effectively gives this monopoly to the provinces is federal.

Importation of Intoxicating Liquors Act
3 (1) Despite any other Act or law, other than the Foreign Missions and International Organizations Act, a person is not permitted to import, or cause to be imported, into a province from a place outside Canada any intoxicating liquor unless the intoxicating liquor has been purchased by or on behalf of, and is consigned to, Her Majesty or the executive government of a province, or any board, commission, officer or other governmental agency of the province that, by the law of that province, is authorized to sell intoxicating liquor.
 
Actually, the liquor laws/regulations of all the provinces do (or did) specifically provide separate categories of licenses for military messes or canteens.



The military (or any other johnny for that matter) are/were required to abide by provincial liquor regulations because the provincial governments effectively have a monopoly on the sale of alcoholic beverages. If one wants to purchase spirits for resale, they have to buy it through the provincial liquor boards, though that has been modified somewhat in those jurisdiction that off-load sales to private business. But the regulations (which affects both seller and buyer) state that a license is required to purchase alcohol for resale.

And the law that effectively gives this monopoly to the provinces is federal.

Importation of Intoxicating Liquors Act
Invalid it refers to the Queen ;)
 
Meh, just send a boarding party to the local Liquor and Beer stores and ‘Open Up in the name of the King’ ;)

Technically the CAF can make whatever regulations they want on DND property (as long as it survives a shorter challenge).

Years ago CO’s were allowed to authorize members to carry firearms off base/off duty — I suspect the NDA got rid of that.
*Was a knock on me during an officer board when I answered one reason I wanted to be an Officer was so as a CO I could issue myself a pistol to walk around with ;)
** the Major on the board that torpedoed got nailed later with a lot of live ammo in his pistol and rifle on a blank ex… go figure.
Brother.

CoCs are scared to let us walk around in body armour in public. Even though the law explicitly allows it.

You can forget about firearms!
 
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@KevinB Honestly this is probably one of the single easiest rules we have to meet. Given the flagrant disregard for basic things around safety rules we regularly try and ignore it's nice to at least try and get an easy goal.

The weirdest one I have seen recently was serious discussion about not having enough life rafts on a deploying ship. Bearing in mind we don't actually meet SOLAS rules anyway, so we weren't going to meet our already reduced level of lifeboats (150% of embarked personnel). Common sense prevailed, and extras were brought on board, but for a while there was serious talks about 'accepting the risk'.

There are reasonable risks to assume to meet operations, and then there is just being stupid (and lazy; it was an easy fix).

Not really sure where I was going, other than the RCN already does a great job at not following it's own rules, but maybe we should at least try to not get cut off from buying booze from the province over a few people not getting a $60 online course that takes about 45 minutes to complete.
 
Not really sure where I was going, other than the RCN already does a great job at not following it's own rules, but maybe we should at least try to not get cut off from buying booze from the province over a few people not getting a $60 online course that takes about 45 minutes to complete.

The legal requirement for serving training is not consistent across the country. Some of the provinces require it, others only highly recommend it, Nova Scotia is in the later category. With regard to shipboard messes on the other coast, British Columbia requires it. Though the likelihood of a BC LCRB inspector visiting a mess and requesting training records is slim, the penalty for failing that would be $1000 to $3000 for the first contravention rising to as much as $11,000 for subsequent contraventions.
 
The greater risk is someone stumbling out of a mess and causing an accident, especially one where the individual or others are injured. One of the first questions that will be asked is who was serving the individual and were they trained. The day of using "We're the CAF and are not obliged to follow your silly provincial rules" are in all practicality gone, despite the policies still being on the books.
 
Honestly the CAF/RCN should tell the NS Gov to F right off, as a HMCS vessel shouldn’t be beholden to a province, for anything. Now that’s not to say there shouldn’t be a policy, but as the province doesn’t own the vessel they shouldn’t be the ones dictating. The RCN/CAF/DND/GoC should have policies.

It's a made up rule. The Liquor Commission has no jurisdiction on board a Ship. Saying a Ship is licensed by the NSLC is sort of like how the Mob used to call speakeasy's "clubs" 😄

This would be interesting to actually research as it would delve in to a whole bunch of different laws, international and domestic.

Suffice to say, the Canada Shipping Act, Customs Act, Excise Act, Marine Liability Act, National Defence Act, International Maritime Law, Hamburg & Hague-Visby Rules, etc are probably sufficient for dealing with any and all problems related to incidents involving alcohol/contraband onboard a Canadian Flagged Military Vessel.

Not some Provincial Government Act that doesn't even apply, from a jurisdictional point of view. The only reason it even applies is because "we say it does, on a document we wrote ourselves 🤣"



When alongside, they would probably have to respect provincial regulations, if only for reasons of supply. So stick with a single ruleset throughout for simplicity.

We buy beer wherever we go. I'm a beer aficionado and one of the best parts of sailing was trialing all the different "beers of the World" wherever we went.

When we are sailing, we deal with an entity called a Ship's Chandler (it's an old name from the age of sail which means "supplier").

Look that term up, it's not a well known term but there are a few big ones globally that handle the vast majority of Shipping needs globally.

Here is an example:


These Chandlery's run bonded warehouses that allow them to sell goods & services to the Maritime Industry/World. These goods & services are generally free of the usual interference of internal customs & excise regulations.

When you receive bonded goods from a Chandlery, they generally will be labeled like this:

v18z4j0q1zr91.jpg


"FOR MARITIME CHANNEL ONLY" meaning they aren't to be sold or provided to anyone not on a Ship or at Sea.

Maritime Law is VAGUE, it's full of loopholes and pretty lax on regulations but this is 100% necessary as global trade & commerce would come crawling to a halt otherwise.

The legal requirement for serving training is not consistent across the country. Some of the provinces require it, others only highly recommend it, Nova Scotia is in the later category. With regard to shipboard messes on the other coast, British Columbia requires it. Though the likelihood of a BC LCRB inspector visiting a mess and requesting training records is slim, the penalty for failing that would be $1000 to $3000 for the first contravention rising to as much as $11,000 for subsequent contraventions.
The BC LCRB wouldn't even have to be let onboard.

This would be a highly entertaining event to see play out though 🤣

It would be a gross-violation of 100s of years of practiced Maritime Custom 🤣
 
We always had a bartender, it ended up being the 2nd OOD or a 'volunteer' usually.

My point is it's just a fridge with some beer in it, DO we REALLY need a bartender 😉, especially once over the horizon 😁.

Saying you have a bartender on ship IAW some NPF policy is just CAF CYA.

For what it's worth, I see alcohol and bars going away completely on Ship. People will just smuggle it on now like they do with weed and other contraband. They'll go down to the lower decks and drink there. The Upper Deckers will just remain blissfully unaware of it and/or pretend it isn't happening.
Agree about ORs, Senior folks will, no doubt, have a private tipple while pretnding nothing is amiss.
 
Agree about ORs, Senior folks will, no doubt, have a private tipple while pretnding nothing is amiss.
I knew of one particular fellow who kept dozens of bulk shampoo bottles filled with alcohol in their locker. They always seemed pretty colorful at work LOL

It all made sense when we finally discovered it was because they were piss-tanked every day 😆

As Fat Leonard exploited to the fullest!


And people say the railroads are run by criminals, Maritime Industry be like:

Watch This Hold Up GIF by Apple TV+


There is literally a Conference held every year by Flag of Convenience Countries where they pitch to Shipping Companies why they should pick their Country to register their vessel so they can skirt the largest # of laws 🤣
 
I knew of one particular fellow who kept dozens of bulk shampoo bottles filled with alcohol in their locker. They always seemed pretty colorful at work LOL

It all made sense when we finally discovered it was because they were piss-tanked every day 😆



And people say the railroads are run by criminals, Maritime Industry be like:

Watch This Hold Up GIF by Apple TV+


There is literally a Conference held every year by Flag of Convenience Countries where they pitch to Shipping Companies why they should pick their Country to register their vessel so they can skirt the largest # of laws 🤣

And sometimes, the chickens come home to roost ;)


Mauritius: Grounded bulk carrier splits in two​


Wakashio, a Japanese bulk carrier that ran aground on a reef off the coast of Mauritius in late July, has split in two on 15 August.

 
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