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CH-146 Griffon

CBH99

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Why are we rebuilding 30 year old helicopters when we have the capacity in Canada to build new replacements for them?
Build new helicopters…

generating employment for workers throughout Ontario and Quebec (with various suppliers throughout the country, I’m sure)…

that could be built with the improvements that have long been identified…

that results in a younger fleet, with higher performance, and good for recruiting and PR? (much needed right now)



Because that would make sense. That’s why. (And as much as I genuinely hate to say it, I’m probably right.)


(If we drop the woke hippy crap, we could probably sell off a decent chunk of the current fleet & offset the cost of the new fleet. These aren’t terribly expensive machines.)
 

KevinB

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Build new helicopters…

generating employment for workers throughout Ontario and Quebec (with various suppliers throughout the country, I’m sure)…

that could be built with the improvements that have long been identified…

that results in a younger fleet, with higher performance, and good for recruiting and PR? (much needed right now)



Because that would make sense. That’s why. (And as much as I genuinely hate to say it, I’m probably right.)


(If we drop the woke hippy crap, we could probably sell off a decent chunk of the current fleet & offset the cost of the new fleet. These aren’t terribly expensive machines.)
New program isn't authorized yet - so you get life extension programs.
A Civilian 412 isn't expensive (relatively) - but when you add .mil stuff on them, the price tends to jump.

You can't just sell the Griffons as you need to strip all the ITAR stuff out of them first.

I am absolutely not a fan of the Griffon, I thought it was a terrible buy when the preferred option was the vastly superior UH-60.
But the poorly thought out (for the CAF) pork barrel politics won.

IF the RCAF is tracking FVL - then the Life Extension makes sense - but seeing as the CAF doesn't have a seat on FVL - I just cry.
 

Good2Golf

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Build new helicopters…

generating employment for workers throughout Ontario and Quebec (with various suppliers throughout the country, I’m sure)…

that could be built with the improvements that have long been identified…

that results in a younger fleet, with higher performance, and good for recruiting and PR? (much needed right now)



Because that would make sense. That’s why. (And as much as I genuinely hate to say it, I’m probably right.)


(If we drop the woke hippy crap, we could probably sell off a decent chunk of the current fleet & offset the cost of the new fleet. These aren’t terribly expensive machines.)
Bell will charge more than the original purchase of all 100 helicopters, and they don’t have to actually manufacture any new aircraft. In business that’s called “significantly increased margin…”. Company executives (and shareholders) like that.
 

Colin Parkinson

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New program isn't authorized yet - so you get life extension programs.
A Civilian 412 isn't expensive (relatively) - but when you add .mil stuff on them, the price tends to jump.

You can't just sell the Griffons as you need to strip all the ITAR stuff out of them first.

I am absolutely not a fan of the Griffon, I thought it was a terrible buy when the preferred option was the vastly superior UH-60.
But the poorly thought out (for the CAF) pork barrel politics won.

IF the RCAF is tracking FVL - then the Life Extension makes sense - but seeing as the CAF doesn't have a seat on FVL - I just cry.
Take the name plate off the current machine and attach it to a new airframe, voila "Rebuilt"
 

LoboCanada

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Kings of half-***ed 'solutions'. I'm trying to watch.... did anyone here watch the whole thing? Any good parts?

How else would you keep this company happy in Mirabel?

We're too cheap to rebuild them into Venoms, too cheap for new ones. We won't even replace the 3 we've lost (as per vid), let alone build more of this aging platform.

Kevins right, FVL is nice but is anyone important watching it? This project is supposed to extend them all the way to 2035, so we won't be starting a new project until 2030 at the earliest, then hopefully have them delivered (as per our history) in the early 2040s. Does the FVL program timeline work into this?
 

CBH99

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True the CAF doesn’t have a seat at FVL - but does anybody other than the US Army currently have a seat?

I’m sure the other American services will jump on quickly once production starts and machines are flying. But do any other countries have a seat at that table yet?


The timeline with FVL may actually work out extremely well, now that I think about it.

FVL will eventually replace A LOT of helicopters… by the time the CAF places an order, hopefully the program is far enough along that the inevitable issues will be worked out.


Keeping Bell happy is a good idea, as they could close that factory and have certain airframes manufactured in factories in the US. So upgrade programs, life extension programs, maybe even a <gasp> continual buy program in place would all be nice. (As discussed elsewhere.)

JT keeping his mouth shut would also help. A lot.

Not every hippy with an opinion needs to get airtime… that annoying ‘hiccup’ may have not only cost Bell an order for 15 birds, but opportunities for future orders/service contracts/upgrades, etc also.
 

Dana381

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Get the rebuild out of the way now so Bell can use the facility to build subassemblies for the V-280 (if they win the contract, which I think they will). The U.S. V-280's will have to be assembled in the U.S. but for the size of orders they are likely to get from FVL they will need the all space they can get for manufacturing subassemblies. If Bell times it right when the Griffon life extension work is winding down the V-280 work will be gearing up. When we need to start replacing the Griffon we can ask very nicely for a few frames here and there out of the production line.

Even if Bell doesn't win FVL they will try to sell the V-280 globally. Hopefully we will take some. The Defiant will be a non starter here as Boeing and Sikorsky are bad words on parliament hill right now. No politician will want to be associated with either for a long while. Boeing was clearly sent that message this week with the F-18 being disqualified from the fighter buy.
 

CBH99

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The US has I think learned from the F-35 that putting all of their eggs in one basket, and one product, isn’t the wisest of ideas.

While the 280 may win the US Army contract, the USAF, USN, and USMC may order the alternative or a mix of the two. I don’t think DoD will want to be beholden to one defense giant again, especially for something as critical as rotary wing assets.


So even if Bell doesn’t win the upcoming contract, I doubt that means they are out of FVL altogether.


0.02
 

Good2Golf

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Not sure I’d call the F-35 an “all the USAF eggs in one basket” situation. One could look at it for what it was intended originally…a stealthier, more integrated F-16 replacement for widespread Allied use. Unless I’m mistaken, it’s actually doing that. USAF still has F-22 and NGAD and B-21 and RQ-180 and ‘other stuff’ that represent far more than just a stand alone F-35 capability.
 

Kirkhill

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Get the rebuild out of the way now so Bell can use the facility to build subassemblies for the V-280 (if they win the contract, which I think they will). The U.S. V-280's will have to be assembled in the U.S. but for the size of orders they are likely to get from FVL they will need the all space they can get for manufacturing subassemblies. If Bell times it right when the Griffon life extension work is winding down the V-280 work will be gearing up. When we need to start replacing the Griffon we can ask very nicely for a few frames here and there out of the production line.

Even if Bell doesn't win FVL they will try to sell the V-280 globally. Hopefully we will take some. The Defiant will be a non starter here as Boeing and Sikorsky are bad words on parliament hill right now. No politician will want to be associated with either for a long while. Boeing was clearly sent that message this week with the F-18 being disqualified from the fighter buy.

Is everybody absolutely sure that a 3900 km range, 560 km/h vehicle is going to be necessary to replace every Griffon / Twin Otter puddle jumper in the fleet? Or is it more of a strategic/operational asset than a tactical one? Myself I see roles for the Valors. But I also see continuing roles for Griffons and such like.

How would the Valors have contributed to the response to the BC Floods? What could they do that the Griffons couldn't? What could the Griffons do that the Valor couldn't? And keeping in mind that, apparently, BC had enough civil resources on hand that they seemed to require neither.

My sense is that Griffons would be a useful addition to the support available to the Canadian Rangers in Northern Communities, together with Bandvagons and Jetboats.
 

LoboCanada

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The future of Bell in Canada depends on whether it can develop a new utility helicopter that could fill the market gap. How many countries like us have old utility rotary wing aircraft that need replacing but FVL options are too new/expensive. Can Bell design a military helicopter? Sub in some existing hardware from Canada (L3, the usual suspects).

Not many contenders in that market, we could sell something...
 

CBH99

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The future of Bell in Canada depends on whether it can develop a new utility helicopter that could fill the market gap. How many countries like us have old utility rotary wing aircraft that need replacing but FVL options are too new/expensive. Can Bell design a military helicopter? Sub in some existing hardware from Canada (L3, the usual suspects).

Not many contenders in that market, we could sell something...
I hope someone in Bell thinks as strategically as you do.

Plenty of countries that need to replace their current rotary wing assets, but are unable to pursue FVL due to finances or skill sets among crews. It’s a niche that, if a company focused on filling, could do quite well for themselves.
 

Colin Parkinson

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The future of Bell in Canada depends on whether it can develop a new utility helicopter that could fill the market gap. How many countries like us have old utility rotary wing aircraft that need replacing but FVL options are too new/expensive. Can Bell design a military helicopter? Sub in some existing hardware from Canada (L3, the usual suspects).

Not many contenders in that market, we could sell something...
The helicopters Bell produces are quite compatible with the fiscal, technical and training restraints of many nations. The biggest hurdle for Bell is getting approval for international military sales.
 

Good2Golf

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The helicopters Bell produces are quite compatible with the fiscal, technical and training restraints of many nations. The biggest hurdle for Bell is getting approval for international military sales.
And the federal government not screwing things up…

Philippines cancels 412 helicopter deal on order of President
In a bizarre turn of events, the Philippines has cancelled a contract for 16 Bell Helicopter 412EPIs for its air force just days after revealing the deal at the Singapore air show.

The cancellation was ordered by Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte after the Canadian government – which had backed the deal for the Montreal-built aircraft – ordered a review into the acquisition.

Ottawa was concerned that Manila's air force planned to use the medium-twins for offensive operations, rather than utility transport missions, according to the government-run Philippine News Agency.

A letter officially cancelling the order was issued on 13 February; Bell unveiled the deal – actually signed in December 2017 – on 6 February.
 

KevinB

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Get the rebuild out of the way now so Bell can use the facility to build subassemblies for the V-280 (if they win the contract, which I think they will). The U.S. V-280's will have to be assembled in the U.S. but for the size of orders they are likely to get from FVL they will need the all space they can get for manufacturing subassemblies. If Bell times it right when the Griffon life extension work is winding down the V-280 work will be gearing up. When we need to start replacing the Griffon we can ask very nicely for a few frames here and there out of the production line.

Even if Bell doesn't win FVL they will try to sell the V-280 globally. Hopefully we will take some. The Defiant will be a non starter here as Boeing and Sikorsky are bad words on parliament hill right now. No politician will want to be associated with either for a long while. Boeing was clearly sent that message this week with the F-18 being disqualified from the fighter buy.
If Bell doesn't win or get a split award of 280, it's toast.
The UK, AUS and anyone else watching FVL are going to want the winner - and for those with histories with Sikorsky in the 60, they will want to likely retain the link.

280 sales are going to be limited anyway due to what is in the airframe - it isn't a commercial bird - it is a purpose dedicated craft for the US Army - 5I's are going to be able to buy - after that the rest of NATO - but outside of that nope.


The future of Bell in Canada depends on whether it can develop a new utility helicopter that could fill the market gap. How many countries like us have old utility rotary wing aircraft that need replacing but FVL options are too new/expensive. Can Bell design a military helicopter? Sub in some existing hardware from Canada (L3, the usual suspects).

Not many contenders in that market, we could sell something...
A lot of FMA/FMS of older UH-60's will cascade once FVL hits - so trying to sell a new bird to others not planning on FVL will be a rough go - as you can't compete with free FMA birds, or super cheap FMS sales of retired airframes.

Neither Bell nor Sikorsky is going to lose any sleep about 85-100 airframe to Canada.

Bell in Mirable isn't going to get authorized by the parent to try to do anything on the R&D front for a new bird -- that is strictly a Civilian Line - the parents build .MIL birds down here.
 

Kirkhill

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If Bell doesn't win or get a split award of 280, it's toast.
The UK, AUS and anyone else watching FVL are going to want the winner - and for those with histories with Sikorsky in the 60, they will want to likely retain the link.

280 sales are going to be limited anyway due to what is in the airframe - it isn't a commercial bird - it is a purpose dedicated craft for the US Army - 5I's are going to be able to buy - after that the rest of NATO - but outside of that nope.



A lot of FMA/FMS of older UH-60's will cascade once FVL hits - so trying to sell a new bird to others not planning on FVL will be a rough go - as you can't compete with free FMA birds, or super cheap FMS sales of retired airframes.

Neither Bell nor Sikorsky is going to lose any sleep about 85-100 airframe to Canada.

Bell in Mirable isn't going to get authorized by the parent to try to do anything on the R&D front for a new bird -- that is strictly a Civilian Line - the parents build .MIL birds down here.

However I could see a split buy in Canada - A MilCOTS Bell and an FVL winner.
 
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