Conflict in Darfur, Sudan - The Mega Thread

[SFontaine]

What do you all think of the situation in Sudan? What do you think oughta be done?

Personally I'm sick of the world ignoring Africa. We took action in Somalia back in the early 1990s and did a lot of good there until the UN pulled out, shortly followed by the US (******* Clinton).

 

[Armymedic]

Without the current war on Terrorism, the western world would be more attuned to whats going on there. No doubt Somalia and Rwanada has a lot to do with the western powers not going in, but what of other African or Asian nations starting the UN efforts? Does it always require a NATO country to start the ball rolling?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I think a new way of thinking has to be done so as to allow a country to help itself.

 

[291er]

Canada is sending less than 10 ppl, mostly staff officers with SHIRBRIG HQ next month to Sudan.  It is called Op Safari, I know this, because I happen to be one of the 10 going.

 

[Military Brat]

I think a new way of thinking has to be done so as to allow a country to help itself.

They are beyond that point. There are militias running around in the Sudan, financed by the Sudanese government, that are committing ethnic clensing. The government seems unwilling to stop the genocide and the common people are unable to do it on their own - they need international help to stop the fighting and then to keep the peace.

Eventually I am sure the Sudanese people will be able to keep their peace by themselves, just like Rwandans do today. But they can't defeat bullets and bombs with sticks, rocks and cattle.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I think we have stuck our noses in other peoples business far too long.  I know it sounds wrong but if they want their freedom then they need to fight for it then they will appreciate it and won't have anyone else to blame when things aren't so peachy.

 

[Military Brat]

I think we have stuck our noses in other peoples business far too long.   I know it sounds wrong but if they want their freedom then they need to fight for it then they will appreciate it and won't have anyone else to blame when things aren't so peachy.

Then we'd need to equip the people of the Sudan with rifles, machine guns, vehicles, planes and the whole bit. These people own nothing but the cattle they raise and the land they live on(which are subsequently stolen by the militias that raid the villages).

I think it would be looked down upon around the world if we were to start arming 'civilians' with lethal weaponry. Rather armed forces should win their country back for them and then train and teach them in order for them to become proficient in defending their country, and keeping the peace. The French didn't win back their freedom on their own in World War 2, neither did the Italians, or the Japanese, or the Germans. The people of all these countries seem very appreciative of the freedom and peace they live in.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

No weapons, no food.  What we give them is the know how to make food, how to police themselves, how to heal themselves.  All with their own people in all the subsequent roles.  Then forbid these new framers, doctors, teachers from practicing anywhere but their homeland for 10 years.  Give them discounts on seed, equipment etc.  They need tractors, set up a factory that makes tractors etc. run by their own people.  Ultimate goal= self sufficiency.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

As for rebels and killing, well when the majority of the populace regardless of who poor will set things right.  Until then we sit back and try to get all the parties talking.  If you want peace keepers send in countries from around the outlining area's.

 

[SFontaine]

Africa isn't exactly modern, peacekeeping central.

 

[winchable]

They've been trying to make All of Africa Self-Sufficient since the era of Post-Colonialism was ushered in, not just the Sudan.
This kind of Grassroots approach takes a great deal of time, but it is starting to turn a few places around.
There are a few notable cases where LARGE attempts were made to modernise, but most failed, not because of the people invovled but because of the logisitcs.
There was one incedent where HUGE quantities of cement hardened in the hold of a ship while it was waiting to be unloaded, the port just couldn't handle the amount that was needed.
Unfortunately with Africa there are many, many factors (tribes, languages, cultures) Africa wasn't carved up into countries with any of these things in mind.

 

[McG]

Africa isn't exactly modern, peacekeeping central.

Africa has several countries with a long history of peacekeeping.  If you look at the missions in the DRC or Sierra Leon, you will find a significant proportion of the contingent forces are from Africa.

 

[Military Brat]

As for rebels and killing, well when the majority of the populace regardless of who poor will set things right.   Until then we sit back and try to get all the parties talking.   If you want peace keepers send in countries from around the outlining area's.

What are they going to set them straight with? Sticks and rocks? These people are running around with assault rifles and the whole nine yards raiding villages, burning homes down, stealing crops and cattle and raping women. I am sure if the people of said villages had the means to defend themselves they would - rather than just fleeing their livelihoods for refugee camps in Chad where even food isn't guarenteed.

I think it is a right of every human being on the face of this earth to live in peace, security and freedom - when those rights aren't met I think that civilized nations who are able to help have a moral responsibility to ensure said right. If the Sudanese government is unable or unwilling to maintain the peace, maybe it's time for the international community to step in on behalf of the people being terrorized by the armed militias.

 

[nULL]

I hate to agree with MB, but he's right. The militias that are going around use Russian built cargo planes to drop huge bombs on these villages before the light fighters come in to kill the men and boys and rape the women. It certainly seems a more worthy cause than keeping the leader of Kabul in "power", or maintaining the peace in Haiti. Assuming the logistics were in place for the CF to actually play a role, it would be a shame to do nothing. 

EDIT: Aren't these situations precisely what the airborne were tasked to deal with?

 

[Pugnacious]

I remember one night last year not being able to sleep so I tuned into athe BBC news channel..BIG MISTAKE.
They were running a documentry about one of the many "African hot spots".

They had a camera man In the field with a "militia", as this group of thugs went about Murdering, Raping, ransacking looting and pillaging a village with the local police desperately fighting back.  

Which led to a a situation caught on tape that they (the BBC) partily  'fuzzed out' was the militia hunting police, and one police officer was mortaly wounded (well no hospital nearby, and nobody taking him there), the militia stood around sharpening their knives on the ground in front of him  while he slowly bled to death, and then they cut him open, and ate his Liver, and Heart...right in front of the BBC camera.

This is the primitive BS, and low regard for human life we would have to deal with, and IMHO, and adding my voice to what SFontaine said... IMHO this is what I'd say is beyond any 'peacekeeping' level to fix.

UHG!
P.

 

[McG]

It certainly seems a more worthy cause than keeping the leader of Kabul in "power", or maintaining the peace in Haiti.

We cannot leave these countries until the work is done (DDR, elections, and stabilization of government institutions & authority).  To leave as soon as fighting stops will only have set the conditions for fighting to resume.

 

[McG]

This is the primitive BS, and low regard for human life we would have to deal with, and IMHO, and adding my voice to what SFontaine said... IMHO this is what I'd say is beyond any 'peacekeeping' level to fix.

Don't you think it is a bit arrogant to paint all of Africa based on one shot of video?  Do you even recall where in Africa it was filmed?

 

[SFontaine]

Unless I'm mistaken I do believe Pugnacious meant the Militias, and not all of Africa.

I swear to God. We as a civilized Western nation ought to do something about this garbage. I mean the US could field a Marine Expeditionary Unit, and we could prolly send over a Batallion of the PPCLI or RCR or something. Get our men in there, clean up the militia scum and give those people their lives back. These days the reaction the world has to these things is a "Meh" and perhaps the passing of a UN Resolution condemning it.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Its nice that you are volunteering the USMC when the US military is having manning problems of its own and do you think the PPCLI and RCRs have done enough? We just don't have the guys, you have to learn that!

 

[Military Brat]

I swear to God. We as a civilized Western nation ought to do something about this garbage. I mean the US could field a Marine Expeditionary Unit, and we could prolly send over a Batallion of the PPCLI or RCR or something. Get our men in there, clean up the militia scum and give those people their lives back. These days the reaction the world has to these things is a "Meh" and perhaps the passing of a UN Resolution condemning it.

Most 'civilized Western nations" are overtasked as it is. The Americans have been calling up hundreds of ex-military personnel who thought their time was up in the Army to go serve a tour of duty in Iraq, Canadian troop deployments are being cut by 75% to give the troops a rest, even the Brits might be forced to disband units due to manning shortages and overdeployment.

Even if Canada wanted to send a battalion of infantry soldiers, we don't have 'em to send! I'm not an infantry expert but I would suspect an infantry battalion to be close to 1,000 soldiers, maybe more. That is probably just infantry. Then you need the support trades that go along with them, plus the equipment. I believe we have a battalion size deployment of infantry in Kabul right now and we have over 2,000 serving there at the moment. We have neither the troops nor the equipment to sustain such a deployment. Then there is transportation - Canada would need to hitch a ride with an ally most likely. Also to consider is the cost of the day to day operations - probably in the dozens of millions.

It just ain't going to happen. Something has to be done, but realistically nothing can be done unless some European or African countries step up to the plate, because those are the two continents peacekeepers could realistically come from.