Dutch Apaches

[Centurian1985]

Confusing title - I was thinking of Aboriginals from the Netherlands...  ;D

 

[a_majoor]

Todays assymetric threats require a more surgical, and in Canada's context, CHEAPER method of being able to spot a small group of enemy, and either destroy them, or guide in someone else to do it.  We need something small, fast, with excellent electro-optic equipment, and a decent defensive/light offensive weapon, augmented by another chopper that can move a QRF should the LOH helicopter be unable to do the job itself.

How about this? http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/caj/documents/vol_05/iss_4/CAJ_vol5.4_11_e.pdf

 

[Eland]

I disagree entirely.

We used Dutch Apaches to very good effect in Kabul earlier this year and ISAF was beginning to panic after they realized that they were being withdrawn later in the Spring.

The AH-64 is an excellent surveillance and reconnaissance platform that was critical to the success of a number of major operations.  Moreover, it was built into virtually every contingency plan developed by the Brigade, including a couple of "coalition operations".  Apaches were also used for very public deterrence displays and even played prominent roles in a couple of President Karzai's public appearances.  They worked hand-in-glove with Recce Sqn and had an excellent operational focus.

The Dutch were able to maintain very high readiness levels throughout the tour and never (AFAIK) experienced maintenance problems to the point where mission availability was affected.  The Apache is light-years more capable than a Griffon with an ad hoc "gunship" capability could ever hope to be.  "Cool" isn't an issue - platform capacity is.

If we're to go down this route (and I think we should - and partially pay for it by scrapping "direct fire" ADATS  ;D), we'd need more than five aircraft to be effective.  Personally, I think about 18 - 24 would do it.

My two cents.

Teddy "Apache" Ruxpin

Teddy,

Let's not forget that in addition to making a good surveillance and anti-armour platform, the Apache can also be used to great effect against soft-skinned vehicles and troops in the open or who are not well dug-in. An Apache can swing in and strike fast and forcefully, then be gone  before the targets know what's hit them.

I agree with you, five is better than none. And anyway, any serious piece of military kit has a significant logistical train attached to it. That is simply an inevitable side effect of technologically advanced materiel. Are we abandoning our CF-18 fleet, or for that matter, the Sea Kings just because of the significant O & M investment they require? No. The concern over cost, is, as usual, a red herring. I cite the MMEV project as proof. QED, as they say.

One of the biggest reasons why the Canadian military is in a mess right now is because of too much ad-hocery being practiced over the years in an attempt to save money. That is, we end up buying kit that doesn't really serve our needs to begin with, and then try to shoehorn it into a role it was never designed for. The MGS is a good example. It's designed for light cavalry fire support, but is replacing tanks built to take on a much more demanding role.

 

[Armymatters]

I don't think we want the Dutch Apache's currently in Afghanistan... I recieved word that recently, a Apache was turned over by the jet exhaust of a nearby Ilyushin 76, severely damaging it. The Dutch apparantly are sending a replacement to replace the damaged Apache.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/05/10/Navigation/177/206471/Pictures+Dutch+Boeing+AH-64D+Apache+'blown+over'+on+Day+Two+of+Afghan.html

 

[a_majoor]

I don't think we want the Dutch Apache's currently in Afghanistan... I recieved word that recently, a Apache was turned over by the jet exhaust of a nearby Ilyushin 76, severely damaging it. The Dutch apparantly are sending a replacement to replace the damaged Apache.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/05/10/Navigation/177/206471/Pictures+Dutch+Boeing+AH-64D+Apache+'blown+over'+on+Day+Two+of+Afghan.html

I am not sure how a runway accident like this reflects on the Apache either good or bad. For our own purposes, the Apache is very expensive, so it would be prudent to see what alternatives exist, either conventional attack helicopters (such as the Cobra series, Eurocopter Tiger, a129 Mongoose, etc.), light helicopters (such as the MD-500 series), or other means to the same ends (UACV's).

Each alternative has various advantages and disadvantages, and needs careful consideration as to how it fits into our needs.

 

[Armymatters]

I am not sure how a runway accident like this reflects on the Apache either good or bad. For our own purposes, the Apache is very expensive, so it would be prudent to see what alternatives exist, either conventional attack helicopters (such as the Cobra series, Eurocopter Tiger, a129 Mongoose, etc.), light helicopters (such as the MD-500 series), or other means to the same ends (UACV's).

Each alternative has various advantages and disadvantages, and needs careful consideration as to how it fits into our needs.

I was just stating that if we wanted Apaches, the Dutch ones in Afghanistan are probally not the best place to go looking for them. The AH-1 Cobra would probally be our best bet, as it is fairly cheap, and fires weapons that we are familiar with already (TOW).