for the Iron Pumpers

[bled12345]

OK!!! So I have tried alot of different training, when I first started out for some reason I thought you were supposed to do 3 sets of 10, later I find out this is bull @#%$ if you want to grow big lol... I've done full body workouts, split workouts, PHA workouts (cycling your workout to do 1 set of each excersize, then move onto the 2nd set instead of just hammering down one excersize with all 5 sets)

So right now, I am doing arnie's split system training, but just slowing it down a *TAD* because after the first 2 days I was hardly able to move a muscle in my body lol. His theory seems to be working though in regards to tearing muscle fiber thats for sure!!! He says that you should do 5 sets per excersize if you really want to get the full potential out of your workout for that muscle group, I really think its true too... 3 isn't quite enough, 6 is too much and you risk injuring yourself.

so
day 1: Chest/back/abs
day 2: shoulders/upper arms/forearms/abs
day 3:thighs/calves/lower back/abs
day 4: Chest/back/abs
day 5: shoulders/upper arms/forearms/abs
day 6: thighs/calves/lower back/abs


The thing I am really excited about in this program is the variation of excersizes that I normally do but in this program you do standing instead of sitting, so I think it will really work on my core stabilizer muscles. he has stuff like standing tricep extensions with barbell.



So far on the program the excersizes he suggests that hit me REALLY hard, like so sore the next day... are
50 chinups
deadlifts
barbell clean and press
push presses
narrow grip bench press
standing triceps extensions with barbell
good mornings


But I am really excited to see how these excersizes affect my core strength, I'm ashamed to admit it, but I'm one of those G.I. Joe weight lifters who'se all biceps/triceps/bench lol!!! But hopefully with specific dedication to core strength excersizes, in no less than 5 weeks I will be one badass machine heading off to basic training lol.... I also do 5 sets of 25 pushups on chest day, and do 5x25 situps every day I train, with 30 minutes of calisthenics on an elliptical machine.

imput and your opinions on this program lemme know =)

 

[The_Falcon]

Well what is you goal? Is getting big? Or is it something else like musclar endurance.  If you wanna get big, keep doing that stuff.  If you wanna develop endurance cut down on the iron routine and focus on calisthetic exercises like push ups, pull ups, dips etc. (BTW using an elipitical trainer would fall under cardio/aerobic training, not calisthetics).  I found this book very helpful http://store1.yimg.com/I/getfitnow_1821_541651 Training with weights is important in its own right, but most people focus on that kind of training way to much (training for size and strength) when the focus should be endurance/strength training.  Also using an elipitical in place of running is a bad idea. It is NOT the same, if you are trying to get better at running, then run.

 

[Gouki]

if you are trying to get better at running, then run.

Exactly. Reminds me of a quip from Bruce Lee's tao of jeet kune do:

"Master, how do I quick fast?"
"Kick faster"

Bled that's one hell of a split I must admit, you sure that won't overtrain you? I'm all for intensity and all but I have to wonder.

But now you got me thinking. I have been doing pretty well with 3 sets of 4/6/8 reps per bodypart, but I don't feel "fulfilled" after 3 sets, even though I apply shock principles to every single one of my sets. I may just move up my sets per exercise to 4 and see how it goes. Thanks for the thought.

5 weeks though? Despite such a rigorous program I doubt you can accomplish a tremendous change (ie badass machine). Two months somewhat possible, three months being realistic. Are you shovelling the chow into your mouth on a consistent basis?

 

[Sivad]

hey man thats a hell of a workout!....for Arnold Schwarzenegger.  Probably Not for you.  see the biggest thing with working out 6 days a week is that your muscles have no time to heal (grow). your muscles do not get bigger or stronger when you workout its the time after you workout!  Now you may say hey it worked for Arnold, well sure it did he spent 6+ hours a day in the gym working out.  But lets remember one of his motto's, "a D-ball for breakfast everyday is a hell of a way!....."  Now if you are crank-in and only have 5 weeks before BMQ couple things to watch out for 1. Random drug tests. some anabolic roids take quite a bit of time to get out of the system.  2. if you just started taking them they won't work in enough time.  Just make sure that your Form during your workout is perfect even if you have to drop weight who cares.  its all about the form.  not the weight.

3 sets of 8, 10, or 12 is enough if you find that its not working you enough mix your routines up, I change my routine every 3 months.  Remember your muscles are lazy and will adapt to the same routine by using other muscles to help do the work so your not really isolating that muscle.  Also try doing drop sets, and stuff I find if I can't get a muscle to fatigue in 3 sets I do 1 more set of a drop set or Resistance set.  Also get lots of Rest and Food 2 of the biggest ingredients.  make sure you eat Right!

As for Cardio......get off those dam machines and RUN out side its the best for you, also try swimming and jumping rope. to mix it up.

 

[Island Ryhno]

Too much ABS brother, it will have a reverse effect on what you are trying to do (I presume is get a six pack) I think you leave enough time between muscle groups to continue the six day split, however if you are going off to basic in 5 weeks you might want to take it down a notch. I change my routine faithfully every 3 weeks, I find I get bored with the same thing over and over. here is a site that has a number of different workouts http://forums.jpfitness.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000056 I've tried the majority of them and they all work well, especially the T-Nation ones from Chad Waterbury, that guy rocks! I use the 5 set routine, max reps for 5 sets of 6-8, I got the old, if you can lift it more than 8 times it's too lite attitude, but hey I like being big!

 

[bled12345]

Yeah I am mainly doing it for size. I find the 6 day split is working for me quite well so far... 2 weeks in and I already notice gains in my clean and press, and bench press. I know resting is a key factor, but the idea is that you rest the muscle group for 2 days while you work out other muscle groups. I agree with you guys whole heartidly about the calisthenics... I really need to start focusing on that, I went for a run today and was not very impressed with my performance. I've been bulking for the past 6 months trying to get my pushups up, i'm 6'5" 240 pounds now, and realize how I need to trim up before bmq... oh well, balls to the wall right

 

[bled12345]

also, I've been lifting for 3 years... So i'm not hoping to go from nothing to lean machine in 5 weeks, rather go from a halfassed lean machine, to a full fledged lean machine in 5 weeks if that makes sense just trying to up the intensity before I head off.

but I am definately taking heed of your advice guys... I'm going to start busting ass running now instead of using the elliptical.

 

[Sivad]

good to hear bled and i truly hope everything works out for you.  Now with the running how you feeling  :-X  I too did why too much bench work and not enough or any cardio.  until I did my step test, and realized that my cardio is crap.  So one more Thing to keep in mind is don't mix the two together if your doing cardio one day don't do your workout the same day, it will take away from one or the other.  If you workout in the morning then run in the afternoon your body will take tone away from repairing your muscles to help with the cardio.  and vice versa.

 

[The_Falcon]

good to hear bled and i truly hope everything works out for you.   Now with the running how you feeling   :-X   I too did why too much bench work and not enough or any cardio.   until I did my step test, and realized that my cardio is crap.   So one more Thing to keep in mind is don't mix the two together if your doing cardio one day don't do your workout the same day, it will take away from one or the other.   If you workout in the morning then run in the afternoon your body will take tone away from repairing your muscles to help with the cardio.   and vice versa.

What?  You can run and workout on the same day, just space it out (wait a few hours). I don't know where you got your info but it is very wrong. 

 

[Sivad]

What?  You can run and workout on the same day, just space it out (wait a few hours). I don't know where you got your info but it is very wrong. 

Are you kidding me! go to any gym and ask, hell go ask the bum in your neighboor hood with and education he will also tell you not to mix your Cardio and weight training.  My god I thought that was commen sense. 

wait a few hours!!!! man how fast do you think your body can heal!  unless your working out with your moms weights then doing your cardio ya it probably won't hurt you but for me and anyone else that takes this stuff very seriously we know not to mix cardio and strength training. 

my god!

My info comes from A. Wife is a personal trainer.  B. Been working out for over 8 years  C. graduated from  Health Related Benefits of Physical Activity
Holistic Approach to Fitness and Lifestyle
Exercise Analysis and Risk Management
Exercise Injury, Prevention and Management
Principals of Conditioning
Physiology -Cardiorespiratory
Skeletal System
Muscular System
Biomechanics of Motion and Force Production
Nutrition
Body Composition
Energy Systems
Program Planning and Workout Developments

Sports Nutrition <--- hated that course though.

as well as    1.  Health Related Benefits of Physical Activity
  2. Holistic Approach to Fitness and Lifestyle
  3. Exercise Analysis and Risk Management
  4. Exercise Injury, Prevention and Management
  5. Principals of Conditioning
  6. Physiology -Cardiorespiratory
  7. Skeletal System
  8. Muscular System
  9. Biomechanics of Motion and Force Production
  10. Nutrition
  11. Body Composition
  12. Energy Systems
  13. Program Planning and Workout Developments
  14. Leadership Skills
  15. Resources

plus will be working towards my Profesional sports Trainer!
So next time you accuse someones info as being WRONG maybe you should ask a few questions or maybe put it in a diffrent way such As: "I have heard that it doesn't effect the muscle when you do your cardio workout the same day.  Could you please elaborate on where you heard this thank you".

Or " I'm sorry but my mom told me otherwise and I'm going to stick my head back up my ass and start talking is that OK"

 

[Island Ryhno]

Hatchet man is a trainer Sivad. We've had some good discussions the two of us! Although we have disagreed on things before, I think he is right on this one in this sense, If you are going to basic you should be doing cardio 5 x week. In order to that and weight train you need to do both on the same day. It is sacrificing your muscle gains but.... Under normal circumstances, I agree with you Sivad, cardio and weights should not mix!  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30301.0.html

 

[Sivad]

Hatchet man is a trainer Sivad. We've had some good discussions the two of us! Although we have disagreed on things before, I think he is right on this one in this sense, If you are going to basic you should be doing cardio 5 x week. In order to that and weight train you need to do both on the same day. It is sacrificing your muscle gains but.... Under normal circumstances, I agree with you Sivad, cardio and weights should not mix!  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30301.0.html

Oh I fully agree with that!  Cardio is a way more important for BMQ than anything else and yes if you are press for time then doing them both together one in the morning and one at night would be beneficial to BMQ. 

See the way you wrote it Island Ryhno I respect and understand! and agree 

 

[The_Falcon]

Alright I should have clarified, if you are going to be doing a serious weight-lifting routine in order to get big, going on a 5 mile run or something similar is counter-productive to your goals.  However given the fact that there are only 7 days in a week you are kinda stuck.  Even the pro bodybuilders do cardio and weights on the same days they just don't them back to back (and the cardio they is not that intense, just even to burn fat).  If you what to lose fat you need to do cardio.  Like I have said too many people place there emphasis on being "big" (I was one of those people), but ever since I was sidelined with my leg problems, I have had time to read and reconsider my training prinicples. Now my focus has been building my muscalar/cardio endurance and strength. What good is being huge and ripped if you don't have the endurance levels to back it up.  Example:  Because you are the big muscle bound guy you get the GMPG to carry on a forced ruck march.  Because you have never included muscular endurance in your program, by then end of the first km you can barely keep your arms up.  I am sure there are other examples, but you get my point. If you are brand new to the military, focus on endurance (pushups pullups etc.) and if you are in but havent been doing this, now would be a good time to start. 

 

[DrSize]

Alright I should have clarified, if you are going to be doing a serious weight-lifting routine in order to get big, going on a 5 mile run or something similar is counter-productive to your goals.   However given the fact that there are only 7 days in a week you are kinda stuck.   Even the pro bodybuilders do cardio and weights on the same days they just don't them back to back (and the cardio they is not that intense, just even to burn fat).   If you what to lose fat you need to do cardio.   Like I have said too many people place there emphasis on being "big" (I was one of those people), but ever since I was sidelined with my leg problems, I have had time to read and reconsider my training prinicples. Now my focus has been building my muscalar/cardio endurance and strength. What good is being huge and ripped if you don't have the endurance levels to back it up.   Example:   Because you are the big muscle bound guy you get the GMPG to carry on a forced ruck march.   Because you have never included muscular endurance in your program, by then end of the first km you can barely keep your arms up.   I am sure there are other examples, but you get my point. If you are brand new to the military, focus on endurance (pushups pullups etc.) and if you are in but havent been doing this, now would be a good time to start.  

You are giving incorrect advice.  The two most beneficial times to do cardio (for fat burning purposes) are first thing in the morning on an empty stomach and directly after a weight workout.

I'm 6'3 275lbs and lean.  I did not find it counter-productive to run 6 miles 4x a week after lifting weights.

Another incorrect point you made was how you need to do cardio to lose fat.....No you don't, you need to consume less calories than you use, as simple as that!

I do not like to post or post on the forum but PLEASE only give advice when you actually know what you are talking about!

 

[Gouki]

Another incorrect point you made was how you need to do cardio to lose fat.....No you don't, you need to consume less calories than you use, as simple as that!

I do not like to post or post on the forum but PLEASE only give advice when you actually know what you are talking about!

Take your own advice. Dieting alone will not make you lose the weight without the work. I dieted for 2 months a long time ago and didn't exercise and lost nothing. When I threw in my cardio the fat loss took off.

It's not "simple as that." Diet and exercise are hand in hand for fat loss. You exercise and eat poorly nothing will happen, you eat well and don't train, nothing will happen. Don't argue this point with me because when I was more inexperienced I did both of the above and ended up with nothing. Only when I strictly controlled my diet and exercised hard (weights and cardio) did the puzzle pieces fit together and the fat loss begin.

You may have to just eat well to lose fat. You may also be a mesomorpth or an ectomorph. Hey guess what? Not everyone has an easy job losing fat. Even for some mesomorphs the fat won't come off with diet alone. As an endomorph myself, without intense cardio I wouldn't drop a single pound.

So don't be so quick to jump over Hatchetman or someone else when you're just as bad. And for the record - Hatchetman does know what he's talking about.

 

[Sivad]

You are giving incorrect advice.  The two most beneficial times to do cardio (for fat burning purposes) are first thing in the morning on an empty stomach and directly after a weight workout.

I'm 6'3 275lbs and lean.  I did not find it counter-productive to run 6 miles 4x a week after lifting weights.

Another incorrect point you made was how you need to do cardio to lose fat.....No you don't, you need to consume less calories than you use, as simple as that!

I do not like to post or post on the forum but PLEASE only give advice when you actually know what you are talking about!

OK I think this is going to far, First thing everyone is diffrent and will lose fat gain fat whatever differently I have studdied 10 diffrent people with similar builds and 2 were somewhat the same in how they lost weight.  Everyone hear will lose weight differently.  And I think everyone here also has a some good advice.  I apologize to hachetman for jumping down his throat, your last post makes perfect sense and I do agree.

Now Dr. Size by cutting calories alone may not do it for allot of people there metabolism may be too slow.  And they may not be eating enough of the RIGHT foods.  Some people need to do cardio to help burn the fat.  if you take an average man who consumes 3000 calories a day and burns maybe 1000 by doing nothing but standing on his feet all day at work, and with our changing his diet at a some cardio to his life he would now be burning more calories so in turn he could lose weight by Just adding a simple walk to his life.  The perfect routine would be for everyone to eat RIGHT but if we all did that we'd all be skinny well most of use anyways.

But I do agree with out about doing cardio or weights first thing in the morning.  hell its best if you do anything first thing in the morning even if its jacking off!  just get up drink some water anywhere from 500-1000ml and then do something productive.  the key here now is to try not to eat for the next 45-60 minutes AFTER your cardio or whatever you do.  now this is just one of the fastest ways to burn the fat.

Also about the water were studying the consumption of the old 8 glasses a day is good for you, you know how someone also says make sure when you piss its clear!  Well that maybe wrong......I said MAYBE, its being tested.  The problem with too much water is that people think that we maybe washing or pissing away all of our nutrients that in fact it may be good to have a little yellow colour to your piss.

Sorry for the long posts guys but this is the stuff that is my life, I love it.

Cheers and lets take it easy on each other we are all on the same side and we are all entitled to an opinion!

 

[Island Ryhno]

Guys, there is so much conflicting information out there about fitness and nutrition right now, it's ridiculous. Here's a read from a fantastic site, T Nation. It's for beginners, but the info is fantastic. There is something to be said for being unknowing about stuff, remember your biggest gains? I bet they came when you were a "newbie" to weightlifting, why? You just did it, went to the gym, throw on as much weight as you can and lift. You also probably stuffed your face with protein. After a while, the gains slowed down, again why? I'll bet it's because we got too scientific on ourselves. Gotta eat at a certain time, gotta do this, gotta try that, for fitness people it's always the latest thing. That being said, here's what I live by and it has worked so far. Eat good protein, it really works. Do cardio, it does burn fat and will help make your muscles "pop". Drink lots of water, anyone who has ever been dehydraded knows it's possibly the closest thing to dying that's out there. Change your routine on a constant basis, I change mine every 3 weeks or so. This is what you need in supplements; Creatine, Protein and a multivitamin. Everything besides those are a scam or gravy. Get good rest, muscles DO build in the resting phase. And finally FORM OVER VOLUME, it doesn't matter shit if you can bench 500lbs if you are wobbling around like you had to many Friday night pops! Acck it works for me. BTW yesterday I upped my squat to  6 x 410, full squats, not those quarter squat smith machine garbage.  ;D oops, here is the article I was talking about!
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=E715E7E56206A65891F032A3331CEA9D.hydra?id=640350

 

[-rb]

Guys, there is so much conflicting information out there about fitness and nutrition right now, it's ridiculous. Here's a read from a fantastic site, T Nation. It's for beginners, but the info is fantastic. ...
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=E715E7E56206A65891F032A3331CEA9D.hydra?id=640350

Good article/site Island Rhyno, thanks for the link.

cheers.

 

[DrSize]

Take your own advice. Dieting alone will not make you lose the weight without the work. I dieted for 2 months a long time ago and didn't exercise and lost nothing. When I threw in my cardio the fat loss took off.

It's not "simple as that." Diet and exercise are hand in hand for fat loss. You exercise and eat poorly nothing will happen, you eat well and don't train, nothing will happen. Don't argue this point with me because when I was more inexperienced I did both of the above and ended up with nothing. Only when I strictly controlled my diet and exercised hard (weights and cardio) did the puzzle pieces fit together and the fat loss begin.

You may have to just eat well to lose fat. You may also be a mesomorpth or an ectomorph. Hey guess what? Not everyone has an easy job losing fat. Even for some mesomorphs the fat won't come off with diet alone. As an endomorph myself, without intense cardio I wouldn't drop a single pound.

So don't be so quick to jump over Hatchetman or someone else when you're just as bad. And for the record - Hatchetman does know what he's talking about.

I don't feel like wasting my time trying to explain this to a bunch of 21 year olds that do not know what they are talking about.  The point I was trying to make is if "X" burns 2000 calories a day doing his daily routine and only eats 1500 calories a day he WILL lose weight(fat, water, and muscle).  Do not try to argue this point because you will not win that argument. 

Now the theory of 1+1=3 does come into play.  The more muscle someone has on their body the more fat they will burn doing the exact same things as someone with less muscle.  So by weight training you are increasing your metabolism as well as your muscle which helps burn fat and give you a much better appearance.  Cardio has alot of benefial side effects so it is definetly something that should be incorporated in everyones routine, however for fat burning purposes you could just eat 1000 less calories a day instead of running for an hour on the treadmill and see the same weightloss results.

I have friends that are national level bodybuilders and alot of them do not do cardio at all before a contest......just some food for thought.

Someone also talked about different bodytypes and everyone reacts differently to excercise.  You are completely correct....I am a total endomorph so I find to stay hard and lean I need to weight train 5 or 6 times a week.  I definetly overtrain but at the sametime it works for me and if I take too much rest in between workouts I blowup really easy and get freakishly huge but get a little too soft for my liking.  I have some friends who only lift weights two or three times a week for around 40 minutes a session and look CRANKED....so yeah what works for one person does not work for another person.  People need to find out what works for them and do it.

Someone also mentioned people get too scientific...I completley agree....I don't have any sort of routine, no planned meals or have to eat at certain times, I don't take any supplements whatsoever, I don't even drink protein shakes(whole food is a million times better but may not always be as convient)....but I do get to the gym and lift free weights frequently (full squats, bench press, clean and press, deadlifts, pullups, dips etc) as well as RUN for my cardio.

 

[Gouki]

Okay, don't pull the "21 year olds who don't know what they're talking about thing" okay please? Some of us may be in our 20's but have devoted a lot of time to researching and putting it to work. I've dropped from 237lbs and 33%BF to 193 lbs and 24%BF with only 7 lbs of muscle lost since this Jan and I'm still going strong, so please don't say I don't know what I'm doing.

That being said, this appears to be another giant misunderstanding, where we are all arguing different points but in essence saying the same basic thing. Ex- What was said to Hatchetman, Sivads points, then me saying things to you in defense about Hatchetman and you responding in kind, we all said things that really, all of us already know. So let's try not to speak to eachother like we're gym newbies from here on out okay?

I do get your point about caloric deficit and won't argue obviously, but my point which I think you understood (especially as you say you are an endomorph) was that diet isn't always the only factor in the equation. I think we can all agree on that?

I like how this topic is going so far, especially the cardio/weights debate going on (I have my own thoughts on cardio/weights but don't want to add fuel to the fire at this time) but as one lifter to another let's just try to keep ourselves (self included) from accusing the other guys here of knwoing nothing. Deal?