• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Georgia and the Russian invasions/annexations/Lebensraum (2008 & 2015)

Here's a question for those in the know:  How DO you tell a Russian BMP from a Georgian BMP?  Paint job?  The dialect in which the return rollers squeak?

I can imagine it must be pretty difficult to determine whose vehicles are going which direction at what time.
 
Kirkhill said:
I can imagine it must be pretty difficult to determine whose vehicles are going which direction at what time.

Rule of thumb:  If it has its gun pointed in your direction, it is not Friendly.  If it has its gun over the Backdeck, it is Friendly.  The gun should always be pointed at the ENEMY.  If it is pointed at you, it is the ENEMY.
 
Some video of abandoned Georgian equipment.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=633_1218601283
 
Thanks for the Heads Up George.  :)

Most of the vids that I have seen so far, including of "retreating" Georgians, seem to have had their guns over their front decks.  IIRC anyway.
 
Georgian tank struck from the rear by air or arty.

8b6818081e65ri5.jpg


1f97789859d5sb4.jpg
 
The incongruous said:
What happens to all that anyways, have the russians been known to scavenge?

Not much to scavenge off a brewed up tank....especially a T Series.

Note the turret on the right tank...there is nothing of use in them at all.

Regards
 
2. The Russians had some largely free and pretty fair elections and they decided, freely and fairly and for themselves, to elect Stalinist thugs - thugs who promised them that they would "matter" once again.

I just felt like adding a little bit of humour --- did you know Stalin was Georgian? Sort of ironic you would use the term stalanist to decribe Russian Thugs attacking Georgia.

Although I tend to see this conflict oddly, Russia has done nothing Georgia has not done - although I don't get the sinking of the boats..  maybe it has something to do with subs... anyway...

I thought I'd add Gori was taken before the Ceasefire - Russia then withdrew from the City.. so stating activity in and around the ceasefire as evidence the ceasefire was broken seems not to valid.. Russia stated they would respond to any attacks within their zones of occupation...

Although I honestly think the flames are being fanned... I'm starting to think a lot of people would like to make more of this. 

I do think Russia is not trying to draw first blood  - but it isn't going to hit first hard - I could be mistaken but it seems that it will continue going on about things finish the collatoral issues, and wait for

A PEACE TREATY and DEMARCATION...


STALIN BORN IN --------


GORI, GEORGIA.....

 
On a technical basis - the catastrophic failure of the tanks shown in the pictures supplied by Mr. Tomahawk6 are quite evident (to me) that the quality of  Russian designed armour used in this conflict lags far behind Western designs. The attempt to update them with reaction armour is evident.  I can't recall one picture/account of current Western armour failing in such a manner. I'm long out of the loop, but those are T-80's  aren't they? What say the experts?
 
wolfshadow said:
So do the regluars here think that this boosts or harms Ukraine's chances of getting into NATO?  My best friend and I had quite the discussion over this last night.

It boosts Ukraine's chances of getting into NATO. Yushenko will unquestionably use this as an example of "Russian Agression" to push for a membership action plan in December. Whether Germany will hold their ground is the question that will decide this.
 
Well.. the latest in the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/world/europe/14georgia.html?_r=1&th=&emc=th&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

14, 2008
Bush, Sending Aid, Demands That Moscow Withdraw
By STEVEN LEE MYERS
This article was reported by Steven Lee Myers, Sabrina Tavernise and Ellen Barry and written by Mr. Myers.

WASHINGTON — President Bush sent American troops to Georgia on Wednesday to oversee a “vigorous and ongoing” humanitarian mission, in a direct challenge to Russia’s display of military dominance over the region. His action came after Russian soldiers moved into two strategic Georgian cities in what he and Georgian officials called a violation of the cease-fire Russia agreed to earlier in the day.

Mr. Bush demanded that Russia abide by the cease-fire and withdraw its forces or risk its place in “the diplomatic, political, economic and security structures of the 21st century.” It was his strongest warning yet of potential retaliation against Russia over the conflict.

The decision to send the American military, even on a humanitarian mission, deepened the United States’ commitment to Georgia and America’s allies in the former Soviet sphere, just as Russia has been determined to reassert its control in the area.

On a day the White House evoked emotional memories of the cold war, a senior Pentagon official said the relief effort was intended “to show to Russia that we can come to the aid of a European ally, and that we can do it at will, whenever and wherever we want.” At a minimum, American forces in Georgia will test Russia’s pledge to allow relief supplies into the country; they could also deter further Russian attacks, though at the risk of a potential military confrontation.

“We expect Russia to ensure that all lines of communication and transport, including seaports, airports, roads and airspace, remain open for the delivery of humanitarian assistance and for civilian transit,” Mr. Bush said. “We expect Russia to meet its commitment to cease all military activities in Georgia, and we expect all Russian forces that entered Georgia in recent days to withdraw from that country.”

In Georgia, President Mikheil Saakashvili, who has sharply criticized what he called a failure of the West to support his country, declared the relief operation a “turning point” in the conflict, which began on Thursday when Georgian forces tried to establish control in the breakaway region of South Ossetia, only to be routed by the Russians.

“We were unhappy with the initial actions of the American officials, because they were perceived by the Russians as green lines, basically, but this one was very strong,” he said in a telephone interview after Mr. Bush’s statement in Washington.

Mr. Saakashvili interpreted the aid operation as a decision to defend Georgia’s ports and airports, though Bush administration and Pentagon officials quickly made it clear that would not be the case. A senior administration official said, “We won’t be protecting the airport or seaport, but we’ll certainly protect our assets if we need to.”

Mr. Bush spoke in the Rose Garden of the White House, flanked by his secretaries of state and defense, Condoleezza Rice and Robert M. Gates. He said that Ms. Rice would fly to France to support its mediation efforts and then to Georgia “to continue our efforts to rally the free world in the defense of a free Georgia.”

State Department officials said there were no plans for Ms. Rice to go to Moscow.

Mr. Bush’s remarks, like the military operation he ordered, reflected a growing apprehension within the White House over Russia’s offensive, as well as mounting frustration that Prime Minister Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, whom Mr. Bush often calls a friend, was unmoved by appeals for moderation. Underscoring the urgency, Mr. Bush, who had remained at the Olympics in Beijing while the conflict erupted, postponed a planned trip to his ranch in Crawford, Tex., which was to have begun on Thursday.

The first relief aircraft, a C-17 transporter carrying medical supplies and materials for shelter for thousands displaced by the fighting, arrived in Tbilisi, Georgia’s capital, on Wednesday; a second was due Thursday.

Ms. Rice called her Russian counterpart, Sergey V. Lavrov, and informed him about the relief operation. The presence of American troops to help the aid mission will also allow the United States to monitor whether Russia was honoring the cease-fire, brokered by President Nicolas Sarkozy of France.

At a news conference at the State Department, Ms. Rice evoked some of the darkest memories of the cold war, though she stopped well short of promises of direct military support to Georgia.

“This is not 1968, and the invasion of Czechoslovakia, where Russia can invade its neighbor, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it,” she said. “Things have changed.”

She and Mr. Bush gave credence to Georgia’s accusations that Russian forces continued to operate in violation of the cease-fire. Russia insisted that all of its operations were permitted under the agreement.

The cease-fire included a provision that required Russian forces to withdraw to their “normal bases of encampment” but also allowed them to “implement additional security measures.”

A senior American official said the vague language “would allow the Russians to do almost anything.”

Only hours after the agreement was reached, a Russian tank battalion occupied parts of Gori, a strategic city in central Georgia. Hundreds of additional Russian soldiers also poured over the border from Russia into South Ossetia, accompanied by fuel trucks and attack helicopters.

Gori is only 40 miles from the capital, and the presence of Russian forces there frayed nerves as rumors circulated of an attack on Tbilisi itself. A Russian battalion commander, at a checkpoint on the highway from Gori to the capital, spoke menacingly of Mr. Saakashvili.

“If he doesn’t understand the situation, we’ll have to go further,” the commander said on the condition of anonymity. “He doesn’t seem to understand that the Russian Army is much stronger than the Georgian Army. His tanks remain in their places. His air force is dead. His navy is also. His army is demoralized.”

Mr. Bush also cited reports that Russians had taken up positions in Poti, a port city on the Black Sea, and were blowing up Georgian ships. Russian officials denied that troops had occupied any cities, but some of the statements appeared to rest on technicalities of what constituted occupation.

In Russia, Mr. Lavrov, the foreign minister, warned the Bush administration that it risked a breach with Russia by throwing its support so strongly behind Georgia and its president.

“We understand that this current Georgian leadership is a special project of the United States,” he said, “but one day the United States will have to choose between defending its prestige over a virtual project or real partnership” with Russia.

He and other officials said that Russian troops in Georgia continued to conduct operations on Wednesday, but only in support of peacekeepers, a role explicitly permitted in the cease-fire signed by Russia’s president, Dmitri A. Medvedev, and Mr. Saakashvili.

Mr. Lavrov said that when Georgian forces abandoned their military headquarters near Gori, they left “a major arsenal of armaments and military equipment” and that the Russian troops were now guarding it.

“To leave it in such a condition would be unforgivable,” he said. “The city residents have problems with food,” he added. “The Russian servicemen will provide them with necessary aid.”

One of the Russian commanders, Gen. Vyacheslav Nikolayevich of the Pskov Airborne Division, said Russian soldiers would remain on the outskirts of Gori but not enter the city. “People can get back to their lives,” he said.

Asked whether Mr. Bush’s relief mission made him nervous, he scoffed. “What can the Americans do to us?” he said. “A big country like Russia doesn’t fear America.”

Mr. Bush’s remarks were the toughest yet in the conflict. “Russia’s ongoing actions raise serious questions about its intentions in Georgia and the region,” he said. “In recent years, Russia has sought to integrate into the diplomatic, political, economic, and security structures of the 21st century. The United States has supported those efforts. Now Russia is putting its aspirations at risk by taking actions in Georgia that are inconsistent with the principles of those institutions.”

Administration officials said that the United States would not take part in planned military exercises with Russia this weekend and that they were considering blocking Russia’s accession into the World Trade Organization and its participation in the Group of 8 industrialized nations.

“I don’t think that there’s any doubt that Russia has already in its actions called into question some of its desire to be integrated into these institutions,” Ms. Rice said Wednesday.

In South Ossetia, investigators began to look into accusations of atrocities. Human Rights Watch reported that researchers witnessed “terrifying scenes of destruction” in four ethnic Georgian villages, and said the villages had been looted and burned by South Ossetian militias.

Anna Neistat, one of the researchers, said by telephone from Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, that they had found no evidence to substantiate Russian assertions of widespread brutality by Georgian troops. Human Rights Watch has been able to confirm fewer than 100 deaths.

Russian leaders have said they would like to bring Mr. Saakashvili to face war crimes charges in The Hague. Meanwhile, Georgia has filed a lawsuit against Russia at the International Court of Justice in The Hague for its actions on and around Georgia from 1991 to 2008, the court said in a statement.

At the United Nations, Security Council members continued informal but inconclusive consultations on the final draft of a resolution intended to codify the cease-fire. Foreign ministers from 27 European Union countries convened an emergency meeting in Brussels.

It was a day on which Georgians were teased with signs that the Russians were — or were not — coming. There were a flurry of reports that Russian tanks were on the road from Gori to Tbilisi, but no tanks ever arrived there.

In Senaki, Russian soldiers had occupied Lia Baramia’s cafe. She had fled when she heard about the fighting. When she returned, Russian soldiers had dug trenches in the cafe’s driveway and were using an outdoor tap to drink and bathe. They were friendly, she said, but she was happy when they left. Cows were munching on the leaves and grass the soldiers had used to camouflage their vehicles, and Ms. Baramia decided to reopen.

Within 10 minutes, a convoy of Russian personnel carriers sped back into town.

Steven Lee Myers reported from Washington, Sabrina Tavernise from Gori, Georgia, and Ellen Barry from Moscow. Reporting was contributed by Thom Shanker and Helene Cooper from Washington; Dan Schneider from the United Nations; and Andrew Kramer and C. J. Chivers from Tbilisi, Georgia.


Going back to those tanks - although the pictures are vague, would you speculate ambush? aerial attack? Or possibly abandonment and blown in situ? The reason I posit the latter is that the reaction armour doesn't seem to have blown. If ambush, then that would be poor infantry-armour cooperation; if air, then bad overwatch. In view of the pictorial and ancedotal evidence, if i was some defense official of some country equipped with such beasties, I'd park them fast and buy Toyota 4x4's instead.
 
I have been perusing the wikipedia article on the Munich Agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement of September 1938.  The peace treaty (document of surrender) 'concluding' this war  was negotiated by the French President Nicolas Sarkozy. I rather hope he didn't hold up a piece of paper and declare "'We have peace in our time".....
 
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s National Post and Globe and Mail respectively, are two articles that I find interesting:

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=721453
The West helped cause this war

Fred Kaplan, Slate.com 

Published: Thursday, August 14, 2008

It is impossible to think about the Russian assault on Georgia without feeling like a heartless bastard or a romantic fool. Should we just let Vladimir Putin and Dmitry Medvedev roll their tanks into Tbilisi in recognition of Moscow's sphere of influence -- and let a fledgling democracy die? Or should we rally sanctions and mobilize troops -- none of which is likely to have any effect? Is there some third way, involving a level of diplomatic shrewdness that the Bush administration has rarely mustered?

Regardless of what happens next, it is worth asking what the Bush people were thinking when they egged on Mikheil Saakashvili, Georgia's young President, to apply for NATO membership, send 2,000 of his troops to Iraq as a U. S. ally and receive tactical training from our military. Did they think Putin would sit by and see another border state slip away to the West? If they thought that Putin might not, what did they plan to do about it?

It's heartbreaking to read so many Georgians quoted in The New York Times wondering when the United States is coming to their rescue. It's clear that Bush did everything to encourage them to believe that he would. When Bush pushed for Kosovo's independence from Serbia, Putin warned that he would do the same for pro-Russian secessionists elsewhere, by which he could only have meant Georgia's separatist regions. Putin had taken drastic steps in earlier disputes over those regions with an implicit threat that he could inflict greater punishment. Yet Bush continued to entice Saakashvili with weapons and talk of entry into NATO. Of course the Georgians believed that if they got into a firefight with Russia, the Americans would bail them out.

Bush pressed the other NATO powers to place Georgia's application for membership on the fast track. The Europeans rejected the idea. If the Europeans had let Bush have his way, we would now be obligated by treaty to send troops in Georgia's defence. That is to say, we would now be in a shooting war with the Russians. Those who might oppose entering such a war would be accused of "weakening our credibility."

This is where the heartless bastard part of the argument comes in: Is Georgia's continued control of Abkhazia and South Ossetia really worth war with Russia? Is its continued independence from Moscow's domination worth our going to war?

At this point, the neo-cons would enter the debate by invoking the West's appeasement of Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland in 1938.

A few counter-questions for those who rise to compare every act of aggression to the onset of World War III: Do you really believe that Russia's move against Georgia is not an assertion of control over "the near abroad," but rather the first step of a campaign to restore the Warsaw Pact in Eastern Europe and bring back the Cold War's continental standoff? If so, why aren't you devoting every waking hour to pressing for the revival of military conscription, for a war surtax to triple the military budget and for getting out of Iraq in order to send a few divisions to fight in the larger battle? If not, what exactly are you proposing?

The same question can be asked of the Bush administration. Vice-President Dick Cheney reportedly called Saakashvili on Sunday to assure him that "Russian aggression must not go unanswered." We should all be interested to know what answer he is preparing. The U. S. ambassador to the United Nations, Zalmay Khalilzad, told the Security Council, "This is completely unacceptable and crosses a line." Talk like that demands action. What's the plan, and how does he hope to get the Security Council to approve it?

Regardless of which side started this conflict, the crisis holds a few lessons for the next American president.

First, security commitments are serious things; don't make them unless you have the support, desire and means to follow through.

Second, Russia is ruled by some nasty people, but they are not Hitler or Stalin, and they can't be expected to tolerate direct challenges from their border any more than an American president could from, say, Cuba.

Third, the sad truth is that the U. S. has little leverage over what the Russians do, at least in what they see as their own security sphere. And our top officials only announce this fact loud and clear when they issue ultimatums that go ignored without consequences.

In the short term, if an independent Georgia is worth saving, the Russians need some assurances in exchange for keeping the country and its elected government intact.

If a newly expansive Russia is worth worrying about, then it's time to bring back Washington-Moscow summitry. Relations have soured so intensely in recent years that a new president could do worse than sit down with Medvedev and/or Putin, if just to lay out issues of agreement and disagreement and then go from there. It's staggering that no such talks have taken place so far this century.

In the long term, the best way to take Russia down a notch is to pursue policies that slash the demand for oil. The Georgia crisis should make clear that this is a matter of hard-headed national security.


and​


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080814.wcogeorgia14/BNStory/specialComment/home
Georgia in the middle
The Russians set a trap, and prodded by the neo-cons, Saakashvili walked right in

MISHA GLENNY

From Thursday's Globe and Mail

August 14, 2008 at 7:28 AM EDT

Georgia's decision to seize large parts of Tskhinvali - the capital of the breakaway region of South Ossetia that borders Russia - was a most disastrous political miscalculation. Within three days of the assault, Russian forces had responded by effectively neutralizing Georgia's military capacity, which President Mikhail Saakashvili's government in Tbilisi had spent several years, and considerable sums of money, building up.

Clearly, Russia has been goading the Georgian government for several years into making the big mistake. The parastates of Abkhazia and, above all, South Ossetia, have been under the control of a toxic coalition of criminals and both former and serving Russian security service officers. Russian soldiers have been acting as their protectors under the guise of a peacekeeping mission, preventing Georgia's attempts to seek a negotiated reintegration of the two areas. The Georgian crisis has clearly benefited the standing of hard-liners in Moscow still aggrieved at Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's decision to have the moderate, business-friendly Dimitry Medvedev succeed him in the Kremlin.

But under the influence of an energetic neo-con lobby in Washington and with considerable support from Israeli weapons manufacturers and military trainers, Mr. Saakashvili and the hawks around him came to believe the farcical proposition that Georgia's armed forces could take on the military might of their northern neighbour in a conventional fight and win.

So the Russians set a trap, and prodded by U.S. Vice-President Dick Cheney's people, Georgia walked right into it.

The consequences of this egregious error begin in Georgia itself. Not only is it now defenceless, it can kiss goodbye to any restoration of sovereignty over both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Even though French President Nicolas Sarkozy received tentative agreement from both Moscow and Tbilisi for the establishment of international talks to settle the status of the two areas, they are unlikely to rejoin Georgia any time soon. The loss of Abkhazia, with its considerable economic potential, is a huge blow. The European Union and the United States will argue there is no parallel to be drawn between Kosovo and the Georgian breakaway regions. But that is not how much of the world, including China, South Africa and Indonesia see it. And it is certainly not how Russia sees it. The first chickens of Kosovo's independence are coming home to roost.

Second, President Saakashvili is now very vulnerable. The Russian invasion has cut communications between Tbilisi and the main port in Poti. BP has closed down the pipeline running from Baku to Ceyhan in Turkey through Tbilisi, and Georgian banks are freezing all loans and blocking capital flight. After only a week, the Georgian economy is teetering. And if the wheels do come off the economy, it is hard to see how Mr. Saakashvili might salvage his political position - such a combination of economic distress and military defeat is usually fatal. If he goes, Georgia is likely to fracture politically into a variety of fiefdoms familiar from the 1990s, and living standards will plummet. There is one faint consolation. The West may be impotent when it comes to responding to the situation militarily but it can rally round by offering the country a financial and commercial lifeline.

Meanwhile, the foreign implications of the error are graver still. Russia is placing a marker on Ukraine. Do not, Moscow says, even think of allowing Ukraine into NATO, otherwise what we have seen in Georgia will be child's play. So the West will have to think hard how to play Ukraine's application to join the military alliance.

This, in turn, has accentuated the divisions within the EU between those countries, including Germany, which remain cautious about a course of open confrontation with Russia, and Britain which has echoed calls from Washington demanding that Russia's application to join the WTO be reconsidered.

But the Georgian fiasco has even broader political implications. For the Bush administration (or for its hawks at least), the Georgian mistake presents an opportunity - let us recast Russia as a threat to global stability and a potential enemy. Predictably, the toughest response to the Russian invasion came from Mr. Cheney on Sunday. The outbreak of the crisis coincided with U.S. President George Bush horse-playing with beach volleyball players in Beijing and the Vice-President was in operational control at the time. Mr. Cheney immediately announced the Russian invasion could not go "unanswered." Mr. Cheney has been spoiling for a fight with the Russians for a couple of years, and he and his allies have seized upon Georgia's and Ukraine's stated aims to join NATO as a way of riling Moscow. By cranking up the dispute with Russia over NATO, Mr. Cheney is also shifting the political debate in the United States away from the state of the economy and toward the issue of national security.

If the presidential election is fought on the former issue, Democratic candidate Barack Obama is a shoo-in. But if the central issue is national security and who would be best at dealing with a major crisis like Georgia, then his Republican opponent John McCain has to be the favourite. Mr. McCain's response to the Georgia crisis was almost as tough as Mr. Cheney's, perhaps explained in part by the fact his chief foreign policy adviser worked as a former lobbyist for the Georgian government.

This political dynamic is driving the West toward a rift with Russia that will polarize a number of other issues, including policy toward Iran. On this latter issue, Russia has played a relatively constructive and, perhaps more importantly, a moderating role. In the next three months, the issues of Ukraine and Iran will loom large in global politics and they may well have a decisive impact on the outcome of the U.S. election. Who set the trap in Georgia? Mr. Putin and his thuggish security service pals or Mr. Cheney and his equally unflappable neo-con friends?

Whether Georgia was defeated by the Russians or lost by the neo-cons, a touch of diplomatic sobriety on both sides would be a welcome development if the Georgian conflict is not to mark a very dangerous new phase in the development of global politics - serial confrontation between the West and Russia.

Misha Glenny is "Author of McMafia: A Journey Through the Global Criminal Underworld"

I agree with Fred Kaplan’s three lessons for the next president and, broadly, with his three prescriptive recommendations but I would add one more: the American led West must, simultaneously, isolate Russia – unceremoniously kick it out of the G8 and refuse to allow it in to the WTO – and, and this is especially for the European members of NATO, restore enough military power in Europe to deter Russia. The Russian leaders are and are likely to remain thugs and bullies – they understand brute force. If they cannot be guaranteed of administering an easy defeat on their enemies then they will cower in fear, and that’s the posture in which we want them.

I think Glenny is wrong. We do not need “a touch of diplomatic sobriety on both sides ... [because ] the Georgian conflict is a very dangerous new phase in the development of global politics - serial confrontation between the West and Russia.”

Russia has chosen the path of confrontation. Even as one understands their frustration, even fear, it is impossible to put their thuggish policies – first in baiting Georgia and then in their ’disproportionate’ military response – in any light except confrontation. That, it appears to me, is what Putin intended. I say let him have it, with all its implications. America is, slowly but surely, reducing its dangerous reliance on Middle Eastern oil – relying, instead, on Western hemisphere, especially Canadian, oil. Europe and Japan can meet their needs from the Middle East – they don’t need Russian oil, even though it is closer. China will need Russia’s oil – the only question is how it will take it.

The good news, from my radio, is that NATO has blocked a Russian warship from joining the ongoing NATO Active Endeavour exercises in the Mediterranean and the FRUKUS exercises in the Sea of Japan have been called off. It's a start.
 
I've been looking at the comments of some of our fellow members and it appears to me that broadly they could be categorized as:

Those that fear we are on track for World War I, the sequel;

Those that fear we are on track for World War II, the sequel.

I base that on the my personal observation that World War I occured because governments adhered to prewar agreements and guarantees while World War II occured because governments ignored prewar agreements and guarantees.  I am not sure that either offers a guide to successful conflict resolution.  Having said that I generally believe that "a man is as good as his word".  Agreements HAVE to mean something.

I agree with Kaplan and Edward in that regard.

I also agree with the characterization of Putin as not being Stalin or Hitler.  Hitler and Stalin were dangerous because they were (IMHO) ideologues that ultimately rationalized the end justifying the means because they believed that only they could create a Utopia for their respective folks.  They failed to accept contrary information and react in a timely, life saving fashion.  They were akin to those individuals who, having lost the sense of feeling, leave their hand on a hot stove until they smell smoke.

Putin is entirely sensible, in all senses of the word.  He reacts.  However he won't react unless he feels pain. And pain must be inflicted.  A little military, a little diplomatic and a large dose of economic. The Mob is most grievously concerned about who will pay for its gold rings. 

WRT Kaplan's third point Kaplan is flat wrong.  The US does have leverage.  It has many potential allies all around Russia's frontiers.  That is self evident from the fear that Russia has of those potential allies. 

What the US, and the EU, and NATO, and Western Europe, and Canada, doesn't have is the same ruthless dedication to task that Vladimir Putin exhibits.

 
oligarch said:
If you can't see that the bombing of Tshininvali actually happened, I can just put you in the same category with the people who believe that WMDs were actually found in Iraq and with the Holocaust deniers.

::)

Mame

Can you make an unfanatical response to the following then?

Explosions suggest Gori withdrawal not taking place.    14/08/2008 8:55:48 AM

A planned withdrawal of Russian troops from the Georgian city of Gori appeared to hit a snag on Thursday.

An agreement had been reached on Wednesday that the troops would leave the city, but explosions and gunfire could be heard Thursday morning suggesting that was not taking place.

There were reports that the blasts -- which occurred shortly after a tense standoff between Russian and Georgian troops on the edge of the city -- sounded like mortar fire.

"It started smoothly, but later a complicated situation occurred," Zaza Gachechiladze, editor-in-chief of The Messenger, an English-language newspaper in Georgia, told CTV's Canada AM.

"It started out OK but that soon gave way to small sporadic shootings and fires in the provincial town of Gori. The Georgian population and leaders ... are very much concerned about the situation."

Georgia had earlier said the Russians were leaving Gori, but later claimed more Russian troops were arriving.

Georgia also claimed the Russians had seized a military base outside of Gori.

Georgian officials had gone into Gori to participate in the handover, but left unexpectedly around midday Thursday.

That was followed by the brief but tense standoff at a checkpoint, which ended when Russian tanks arrived at the scene and Georgian soldiers backed off, The Associated Press reports.

"Russia has not taken the right steps and is not following it's commitment," Gachechiladze said.

or this:

Russians said to be advancing, not withdrawing, in Georgia.  Thursday, August 14, 2008 | 9:45 AM

In a day of conflicting news, there are reports that Russian troops are advancing rather than pulling back in parts of Georgia, adding to their strength in the key central city of Gori and sending forces to a Black Sea oil port.

"I cannot confirm a ceasefire right now," Eka Zguladze, a Georgian deputy foreign minister, told CBC News.

She said Russian forces "are still present, very aggressively present" in Gori despite a French-brokered ceasefire agreement that called for both sides to pull back to positions they held before the fighting started last Friday.

In Poti, the Russians are looting and "blowing up port infrastructure," she asserted.

Speaking from the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, she said her country is not calling for outside military intervention but hopes to see the West put political and economic pressure on Russia to withdraw.

"We've been self-defensive so far, and if the occupation of our territory continues we will have to fight," she said.

Meanwhile, Russia's foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, told reporters that "one can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity" in the Russian-dominated separatist regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, suggesting that Russia might absorb them.

The Associated Press reported that at least five explosions were heard near Gori just hours after the Georgian Interior Ministry said Russian troops were leaving the area.

Russian and Georgian soldiers pointed weapons at each other at a checkpoint on the city's outskirts before Russian tanks rushed to the scene to force the Georgians to back off, AP said.

I am still undecided as to whom are the "Good Guys" and whom are the "Bad Guys" or if there are neither. 
 
Has no one noticed the irony of Georgia violating Iraq`s sovereignty by participating in the Iraq War in 2003?  It's fine for Georgia to invade other countries-but heaven forbid if they are invaded?  Not hypocritical at all.  Very little sympathy for them and their playing the violation of sovereignty card!  Maybe if they hadn't put troops in Iraq they could have defended their own country a bit better?   
 
Wasn't thier involvement in Iraq part of the future NATO pact with the US?

You help us now we'll help you later kinda thing.


???
 
Wasn't thier involvement in Iraq part of the future NATO pact with the US?

You help us now we'll help you later kinda thing.

Sure but that still doesn't give it any more legitimacy for Georgia to violate the sovereignty of a country that never attacked it. 
 
Back
Top