Guns, Gangs and Toronto

[NavComm]

Well either we've convinced poor nULL of the error in his thinking or he's just plain given up arguing with the masses!

 

[ArmyRick]

Try being a toronto cop with an idiot like mayor Miller. My cousin is a toronto cop and he constantly tells me of how many times he has been called a racist pig while cuffing a person who just got busted doing something really stupid (drugs, assault, rape, etc, etc). I lived in Bathurst Finch area for several years. I had a neighbour who was a hard working Jamaican family man. He was a good guy and really lived a clean life. I asked him if he ever lived in Jane and Finch and he replied that he did but he would never return. Never.

I have alot of problems with the city of toronto, it is a city that is rotten with politics and political correctness. Most of it in mind starts with the city politics and their gouging the tax payers money for pay raises and crap. then add in the special interest BS and the questioning the police every time they do their job. 

 

[Blackhorse7]

ArmyRick,

It like we said, it's a tough job.  We get the same racist crap out here, but with First Nations's people.  "You are just doing this because I am native."  "No, I am doing this because you beat up your wife in a drunken rage."  But I do agree that going on strike is ill advised for a Police Force.  I think that would be a rapid slope to losing pubic favor.  I realize that going on strike is a valuable tool for job action when a union is involved, but for a Police Force, I don't think so.  A "work to rule" action would be better.  For those not in the know that is where you do things exactly to policy, without deviation.  It really slows things down, and when John Q. Public starts to complain that his theft of lawnmower file has taken six months to investigate, people start to listen.

It's fine to say "suck it up, your an essential service."  But as in my previous post, until you've walked a mile in my shoes, yada, yada, yada.

 

[Blackhorse7]

And on a side note, the Lower Mainland here in BC has had five shooting incidents in the last four days.  Thank God nobody has been killed yet.  But no doubt, in major urban centre's, gun violence is on the rise.

 

[Jonny Boy]

Probabbly... Pity a 19 year old woman had to get shot and killed just cause she wanted some boxing day bargans....

actually she was 15. it sickens me to see this kind of stuff happening. it is not even at night and away from the public anymore. it is on a very busy street on one of the busiest days of the year. 6 people shot one killed for what?

 

[pbi]

Zipperhead: I should perhaps clarify. You are right to say that a PC identifying himself as the Devil is not racist in itself, although it is still stupid, especially when bad asses carrying recording devices is nothing new: bikers have known about this trick for years. The point is that once he pulled over a carload of black youths, he was already in the danger zone and anything he said that was the least bit out of line was going to be misinterpreted, as it was; and hyped in the media, as it also was. This is not fair, nor what we want, but it is the way things were in Toronto.

Now, I think, things are changing. Anybody who was living in a tunnel for the last few years in the GTA, and didn't already know,  has now been made fully aware of the extent of the violent crime plaguing the Jamaican community. Even if the media studiously refuses to report descriptions of suspects, video footage reveals on TV night after night quite clearly who is involved. Two other factors  will, I think, have a sobering effect on all the PC weeping and wailing as well. First: about two months ago a private video got into the hands of the media and the TPS, and was widely publicized. This video, made by the gangbangers, showed them standing around brazenly in what looked like a housing project, brandishing all types of firearms and  making all kinds of threatening gangsta idiot statements. With one exception all the participants were black. It was quite frightening to watch because it made you realize that people like this are loose on the streets. It would tend to undermine support for the idea that they are harmless victims of society who only want to actualize their blahblahblah......


Second, a recent highly publicized incident at a northwestern Toronto high school, in which a group of black teenagers were arrested in a controversial raid at the school as a result of allegations of sexual harrassment charges by a white female student, did not display the community in question in a very good light. The parents of the accused immediately claimed that the arrests were racially motivated ("racial profiling" one mother called it... as if police would arrest white, red or yellow suspects if the description was for a black male...). The parents were reported to have mobbed a police-school-community meeting that was held after the arrests, shouting and acting in a disruptive, confrontational manner. At no time was there any significant expression of concern for the alleged victim: in fact a number of parents seem to have made a point of questioning her truthfulness and character. Again, I don't think these actions won many points.

Now, of course, we have had the latest shootings that took place right where Jimmy and Janey Yuppie and "average suburbians" go into downton TO to shop and enjoy life. People can't ignore the problem by saying "It's a Jane-Finch thing". They are forced to acknowledge it, and to acknowledge the sick, dangerous mentalities that commit these acts.

I expect now that the TPS (which has always had the support of the majority of people, in my opinion, because the great majority of people in TO and in the GTA are law-abiding middle and upper middle class) will get the support it needs.

Cheers.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Make the style un-cool, and kids will stop trying to live it.

Geez how do you propose to do that??  Start a new trend? 


dileas

tess

 

[zipperhead_cop]

The majority of people causing these public shootouts are young, mostly black males wearing 'urban' clothes and trying to live the 'urban' lifestyle. There is a reason they wear baggy pants and huge jackets/shirts...easier to hide a weapon. Thats one of the reasons this 'style' started, gangbangers wearing baggy clothes to conceal weapon and stolen stuff from the liquor store.

Maybe you forget the violence that the Hells Angels were involved in just a few years ago?  And I don't know about your parts, but we have had three Albanian shootings where indiscriminate shots were fired into restaraunts and public sidewalks.  I got shot at off duty at a crowded restaraunt by a good old white trash Caucasian.  Don't get hung up on the colour.  The Jamaicans are just the current flavor drawing all the heat.  The Russians, Asians, Italians, Yugo's, and bikers are all doing their business just fine, with weapons at the ready. 
You are correct in that there is a "gangsta" culture that glorifies this type of lifestyle.  But if "G-Yo-Capp Assmaster" went to jail for fifteen years for something like this, it wouldn't seem so cool.  As it is, watch what happens.  I predict that the a$$hat pleads guilty to manslaughter, gets the weapon charges dropped (all which had mandory sentences, very distasteful for judges) as part of the plea arrangement, get sentenced to 6 to ten years (which means six) and then does two years actually in custody, minus the double time credit he will get leading up to the trial for his dead time.  He will come out with all of his street cred in tact and probably a free Bachelors degree in Law.  Now thats Justice.

If you don't want your kids to dress like thug idiots, then buy thug idiot clothes like them and hang out with your kids when they go to the movies or mall.  Make sure you talk like a street thug with all the requisite ebonics, but street lingo that is at least five years old.  Daaaaaaymm, Boyyyy!  That is dope!!

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Now, I think, things are changing. Anybody who was living in a tunnel for the last few years in the GTA, and didn't already know,  has now been made fully aware of the extent of the violent crime plaguing the Jamaican community. Even if the media studiously refuses to report descriptions of suspects, video footage reveals on TV night after night quite clearly who is involved. Two other factors  will, I think, have a sobering effect on all the PC weeping and wailing as well. First: about two months ago a private video got into the hands of the media and the TPS, and was widely publicized. This video, made by the gangbangers, showed them standing around brazenly in what looked like a housing project, brandishing all types of firearms and  making all kinds of threatening gangsta idiot statements. With one exception all the participants were black. It was quite frightening to watch because it made you realize that people like this are loose on the streets. It would tend to undermine support for the idea that they are harmless victims of society who only want to actualize their blahblahblah......


Second, a recent highly publicized incident at a northwestern Toronto high school, in which a group of black teenagers were arrested in a controversial raid at the school as a result of allegations of sexual harassment charges by a white female student, did not display the community in question in a very good light. The parents of the accused immediately claimed that the arrests were racially motivated ("racial profiling" one mother called it... as if police would arrest white, red or yellow suspects if the description was for a black male...). The parents were reported to have mobbed a police-school-community meeting that was held after the arrests, shouting and acting in a disruptive, confrontational manner. At no time was there any significant expression of concern for the alleged victim: in fact a number of parents seem to have made a point of questioning her truthfulness and character. Again, I don't think these actions won many points.

Now, of course, we have had the latest shootings that took place right where Jimmy and Janey Yuppie and "average suburbians" go into downton TO to shop and enjoy life. People can't ignore the problem by saying "It's a Jane-Finch thing". They are forced to acknowledge it, and to acknowledge the sick, dangerous mentalities that commit these acts.

I expect now that the TPS (which has always had the support of the majority of people, in my opinion, because the great majority of people in TO and in the GTA are law-abiding middle and upper middle class) will get the support it needs.

Yeah, thats great.  Now the TPS gets the public support after x number of people get waxed.  That same public was dead silent for the past fifteen years or so, and now they want their police to run around and make it all better?  Their "white mans guilt" that allowed a socialist city counsel crush the spirit and effectiveness of the TPS is what allowed this situation to get this bad. 
As far as the Jamaicans being "plagued", isn't this what they fought to have?  Dudley Laws and all of his toadies fighting tooth and nail to have the PoPo leave them alone?  Congratulations!!  You got what you wanted.  Enjoy the glory of autonomy.  And the fact that a bunch of parents showed up and railed against their criminal kids getting rounded up is further proof that that community is not mature enough to band together, stand up and say "we want to be part of normal Canadian society again, what can we do to help?".  Nope.  Put up a fence and let them shred each other like rats in a box.  After they are begging for police action and sign a public contract of support and cooperation, then maybe.  Without community support, it will be no different than the Americans trying to keep a lid on things in Iraq.  Does that seem callous?  Probably.  But these people need to be a little scared that their lives are out of control so they don't even think about doing a band aid job on this, then go back to throwing frozen oranges at cruisers from high rises after the body count settles down.

 

[GGboy]

Two points about the Boxing Day shootout:

One of the two charmers arrested shortly after the shooting (and subsequently charged with participating in the gunplay) was on probation at the time for assorted robbery and threatening death convictions. He had been out on the street exactly two months and three weeks after serving 30 days for his various misdeeds.
So I have some sympathy with cops complaining about the courts letting these scumbags off with wrist slaps.

However, of Toronto's 52 shooting deaths in 2005 the TPS has made arrests in exactly 18. So the courts aren't the whole problem ...

 

[kcdist]

However, of Toronto's 52 shooting deaths in 2005 the TPS has made arrests in exactly 18. So the courts aren't the whole problem ...

GGboy...Hope you're wearing armour...you're going to get some major reaction from your inference that the TPS is dropping the ball...

Although they have only made 18 arrests, I would bet large coin on the fact that they have suspects for at least twice that many...if not all. I would love our legal system...if I were an accused. Not only is the sentencing a major issue, but so is the actual conduct of trials. Rules on the exclusion or acceptance of evidence is heavily weighted in favour of the accused.

It is highly likely that the TPS may have evidence on the culprit from a variety of sources, such as Confidential Informants, eye witnesses, forensics and even video surveillance. However, each of the sources has to be considered individually as to whether it would hold up under a brutal cross examination or even if it would be accepted into evidence by a judge.

Eye witnesses that co-operate on the day of the shooting often change their story when on the witness stand or when asked to participate in formal, recorded interview.

Informant evidence, even if 100% credible and reliable, often can't be used in trial at the risk identifying the source.

Forensic evidence is great, however if can only identify such things as which gun the bullet came from. If that same gun was located under the seat of a vehicle with five occupants, it likely can't be linked to one single individual. To charge all five with the murder would be possible, but likely unsuccessful without further corroborating evidence.

Despite wonderful advances in technology, most video surveillance tape is nearly worthless. The quality systems cost major $, and even big chains such as 7-11 have crappy systems in which you could hardly identify your mother.

When a case is brought to trial, the police and crown prosecutors only have one chance for a conviction. If they know who dunnit, but they have weak sources, they likely will not proceed with an arrest. In Canada, there are no second chances for prosecutions. If the accused is found not guilty because either the evidence was thrown out or was weak, the bad guy walks for good, regardless if something comes up later. It is also very possible that some of those arrested may be linked to other homicides, but without suitable supporting evidence, the additional charges are not laid.

Additionally, the TPS are dealing with a unique situation in Toronto of an entire community that appears hostile to, and uncooperative with, the police. The boxing day shooting was different in that it was done in a highly public place, and there was likely no shortage of witnesses willing to come forward. However, the majority of TO's shootings were performed by and against members of a single community, with few, if any, witnesses outside of that community. Therefore, if the consensus inside that community is that co-operating with the police is unacceptable, there is very little to go on.

THEREFORE, I would not be blaming the TPS for lack of arrests. The homicide unit is likely very competent, however, evidence that would hold up in court can't be manufactured. Knowing who committed the crime, and proving it beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal trial, are often two separate issues.

I would lay blame at the doorstep of the Jamaican community, followed by the lack of political will, and a close third would be the courts and their liberal interpretation of the Criminal Code.

 

[Old Ranger]

I just suggest that maybe we should work harder to attempt to discourage a culture that is completely based on crime/violence/drugs. Dress codes in ALL schools are a start, Yes!

I don't forget that all races are involved in crime (in Guelph, all our 'gangstas' have white skin). But hip-hop (the 'nice name' for gangsta culture) is mostly a Black invention (helped along by record companies) and has become a uniform of sorts for many ethnic youth. Talking about race is an unpleasent subject, and no race is more prone to crime then others. Do we blame the Media for which crimes and how the report them?  Should the Media have to follow conduct guidelines?

 

[Blackhorse7]

Well, said kcdist.  Although problems like this come from all sorts of community types.  While I'll admit that I am ignorant to the social climate particular to TO, I do come across people regulalry that say "Why aren't the Police doing something about these problems?"  My answer to that is that I am just one part of many parts that are needed to get a conviction on a person.  People need to start taking ownership of problems, and making a stand.  When communities start doing that, and helping Police rather than pointing the finger at them, you would see a big change in things.

 

[Roy Harding]

The Peelian Principles or Nine Points Of The Law are below.

1 / The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
2 / The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.
3 / Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.
4 / The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.
5 / Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.
6 / Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient.
7 / Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
8 / Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.
9 / The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

Citizens everywhere, but for the purposes of this discussion, especially Toronto, should pay attention to point 7 above.

 

[Infanteer]

Citizens everywhere, but for the purposes of this discussion, especially Toronto, should pay attention to point 7 above.

+1

 

[Infanteer]

Looks like Toronto is off to an early start for 2006.  :

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/01/01/toronto-homicide060101.html

 

[GO!!!]

"Suspect is a young black male, baggy pants, big jacket and a du rag"

Do you have ANY idea how many people that description fits in Toronto?

I would bet that that number would decline if distinctive dress and location was grounds for a bodily search. Gang colors are banned in bars, clubs and other areas, why could'nt the definition be expanded to certain types of dress?

Search anyone dressed in a certain manner, find the guns and drugs, and throw them in jail - you can't tell me that most of the accused and convicted were'nt dressed in a certain, common way when they committed their crimes, dress could be added to the list of "at risk behaviours".

 

[Infanteer]

No, because despite the fact that a "gangsta" sub-culture exists among these gang-members, we do not subvert our principles to deal with them.  I have a right to dress how I feel and not to be targetted by the government based upon my appearence; so does every other Canadian.  Clubs and whatnot are private establishments and a dress code is within reason but on the streets and in public, freedom of expression cannot be run over based upon something as flimsy as presumption of guilt.  There is a deep and sound rationale behind the principle of lawful search and seizure - throwing it to the wayside and giving arbitrary powers to the government is stepping in the wrong direction; in 1776 men saw this and listed similar items as "causes which impel[led] them" to oppose their sovereign.

What's next?  Tagging everybody walking out of a mosque and watching them?  Ever see that movie The Seige?  Do we follow a "presumption of guilt" the logical end and conclude that since you, GO!!!, are a registered gunowner (and thus pose a threat of "at risk behaviour") that the government can arbitrarily tap your phones, spy on you, and search you when they wish?

We don't need to go on witch hunts to figure out who these guys are; I'm willing to be that most of these shootings involve people who were "known to police" - this is the case in Vancouver everytime Indo-Canadian dealers or Hell's Angels knock guys off.  It is the job of the courts (and, by extention, us) to keep them off the streets.  The fact that a fellow on probation for robbery and uttering threats was involved with the boxing day shooting is indication enough of where the problem lies.

 

[kcdist]

Infanteer,

I don't disagree with your response, however, there should be some allowances made for when a community is in crisis.

For example, existing law in Canada does not require a pedestrian, or a vehicle passenger, to provide Police with identification.

For example, group of 'bad' looking guys in suspicious place. Cops' 'spidy senses' are tingling, and despite no report or evidence of crime, approaches group. Cop asks for identification. 'Bad' guys tell cop to take a hike. Cop has no recourse.

Now, if there was a crime reported or evidence of criminal activity, that's a different story, and the suspects can be placed under investigative detention without being placed under arrest.

Most cops are able to engage in B.S. using veiled threats and sometimes outright lies to gain positive identification. Most times it's simply provided upon request. However, many hardened bad guys are fully aware of their rights, and will not provide any information. Often times, the bad guys may have outstanding warrants, or may be under curfew or have a 'no association' clause. Unless the cop specifically knows who he's dealing with, the bad guy walks.

'Check-up slips' are an invaluable resource as an investigation tool, however, the hardend bad guys are under no obligation to play along. Bottom line is, without his knowing, the cop may have witnessed the beginning or aftermath of a crime, and without articulable evidence, is powerless to do anything.

I don't believe it would offend the sensibilities of most Canadians if, in a community in crisis such as the affected areas of Toronto, Police were granted special powers to deal with suspicious looking activity, even something as simple and innocuous as compelling persons to provide identification upon request.

 

[Infanteer]

I don't disagree with your response, however, there should be some allowances made for when a community is in crisis.

I challenge you to reasonably prove to me that there is a "crisis" in Toronto.

There were 78 homicides in Toronto in 2005, 52 of which involved a firearm.  I'm not sure what percentage of these 78 homicides were due to gang-violence.  Are you trying to tell me that in a city of 5,000,000 people that 50 some-odd deaths constitutes a crisis?!?  Christ, Dallas and Chicago were each close to 500 homicides in 2005 (IIRC) and I don't see them running to burn the Bill of Rights to solve that problem.

If there is a real crisis in Toronto, then the Emergencies Act exists to deal with it.  Build a case to see it enacted if you wish.

This is my real concern with the Liberal proposal to ban guns - they are blowing the matter out of proportion for votes.  There is no consideration of principle or a real estimate on the gravity of the problem at all - it is demagoguery pure and simple and in the end, it is the Canadian public who will bear the cost of falling for it....