Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[Skysix]

It may be the highest cost per attack but how does it compare in terms of maintaining a standing attack capability? For example, suppose there were no air attack capability, only ground attack by truck, boat and permanently emplaced assets. How much would fire defence cost under those circumstances?

Airmobile is very weather dependant. Weather in the North is as much or more so, of an opponent as the enemy. I wouldn't want to jump a Javelin or Stinger and rely on the tent group supplies landing anywhere near me in much if the winter weather north if tbe Arctic Circle. Pretty sure you can't LAPSE or airdrop through the clouds and snow squalls effectively.

 

[RangerRay]

Airmobile is very weather dependant. Weather in the North is as much or more so, of an opponent as the enemy. I wouldn't want to jump a Javelin or Stinger and rely on the tent group supplies landing anywhere near me in much if the winter weather north if tbe Arctic Circle. Pretty sure you can't LAPSE or airdrop through the clouds and snow squalls effectively.

Weather would be a limiting factor to airmobile operations in British Columbia as well, especially along the wet Coast and in the Interior in winter (at least until you get above the inversion layer in the valley bottoms).

 

[Skysix]

Biggest issue the CAF has is the fact it doesn’t have significant rotary wing assets, and most they have aren’t an ideal platform (cough Griffon cough).

100%

They need another set of CH-47F and 2 squadrons of UH-60M plus 6 or so HH-60M

 

[Skysix]

But when we're talking the CAF who are tasked with ensuring the sovereignty of the Nation you are not in a position to accept that we've allowed Red Force X to occupy Baffin Island (for example) while we decide if it's worth mobilizing or not and then trying to figure out how to get there. You need that ready, full time force, there ready for the unknown while having a plan to add resources to support the initial response.

Greenland/Denmark enter the chat

 

[daftandbarmy]

100%

They need another set of CH-47F and 2 squadrons of UH-60M plus 6 or so HH-60M

That would assume the CAF has first identified its purpose and subsequent main effort/CoG, and sticks to it for longer than a Hummingbird's Heartbeat

 

[Kirkhill]

Airmobile is very weather dependant. Weather in the North is as much or more so, of an opponent as the enemy. I wouldn't want to jump a Javelin or Stinger and rely on the tent group supplies landing anywhere near me in much if the winter weather north if tbe Arctic Circle. Pretty sure you can't LAPSE or airdrop through the clouds and snow squalls effectively.

So airmobile forces need to carry a sufficient amount of supplies to weather the weather and also needs ground transport to be able to relocate.
The unit needs to be right sized so that the personnel, their tools, their supplies and their vehicles can all be deposited in a single lift. The air lift has to be organized along the same lines so that complete elements with their vehicle(s) and supplies are delivered in single air frames.

 

[Kirkhill]

Weather would be a limiting factor to airmobile operations in British Columbia as well, especially along the wet Coast and in the Interior in winter (at least until you get above the inversion layer in the valley bottoms).

Weather is a limiting factor in all operations. It can instantly change the Terrain and make all your vehicles useless, or at least degrade them. It can also degrade your Situational Awareness. Back to the need for autonomy.

 

[daftandbarmy]

So airmobile forces need to carry a sufficient amount of supplies to weather the weather and also needs ground transport to be able to relocate.
The unit needs to be right sized so that the personnel, their tools, their supplies and their vehicles can all be deposited in a single lift. The air lift has to be organized along the same lines so that complete elements with their vehicle(s) and supplies are delivered in single air frames.

And it presupposes air superiority.... which alot of people tend to forget.

 

[Kirkhill]

And it presupposes air superiority.... which alot of people tend to forget.

Fair comment but does air superiority mean what we though it meant?

Perhaps air superiority begins with a CLU and a Stinger for every infantry section.

 

[Skysix]

Fair comment but does air superiority mean what we though it meant?

Perhaps air superiority begins with a CLU and a Stinger for every infantry section.

Thought I read somewhere that CLU can launch some AA missiles as well. If not, a CLU compatible fire and forget radar or IR guided AA missile would be a good idea.

But now the section loadout 'starts' getting heavy with 2x SAW, CLU and 2 or 3 of each missile type (threat dependant)

 

[daftandbarmy]

Fair comment but does air superiority mean what we though it meant?

Perhaps air superiority begins with a CLU and a Stinger for every infantry section.

Um, no.

It starts with overwhelming superiority in the aero-space realm, then adds bells and whistles after that.

Or at least that's what I was told

 

[Kirkhill]

Um, no.

It starts with overwhelming superiority in the aero-space realm, then adds bells and whistles after that.

Or at least that's what I was told

That was prior to Feb 24th 2022.

 

[Kirkhill]

Thought I read somewhere that CLU can launch some AA missiles as well. If not, a CLU compatible fire and forget radar or IR guided AA missile would be a good idea.

But now the section loadout 'starts' getting heavy with 2x SAW, CLU and 2 or 3 of each missile type (threat dependant)

The Army Is Now Firing Stinger Missiles From A Javelin Launcher

Firing Stingers from a Javelin launcher could be especially useful for engaging aircraft, drones, and missiles at night and in bad weather.

www.thedrive.com

Every section gets a CLU to add to Situational Awareness in all environments. Add missiles according to the threat environment.

Edit: The section doesn't carry any missiles at all unless the Coy OC makes the call.

 

[FJAG]

That was prior to Feb 24th 2022.

There's a lot more to Ukrainian air defence than a few Stingers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Armed_Forces_of_Ukraine#Air_defense_systems

Has anyone mentioned lately that we have none of the above nor their NATO brethren except what's on our frigates?

 

[daftandbarmy]

There's a lot more to Ukrainian air defence than a few Stingers.



Has anyone mentioned lately that we have none of the above nor their NATO brethren except what's on our frigates?

 

[FJAG]

 

[Kirkhill]

 

[Kirkhill]

Yer too late

 

[Kirkhill]

There's a lot more to Ukrainian air defence than a few Stingers.

From the previously cited article

The LWCLU is not just a missile launcher. It is a node in the battlefield network. One of the Stryker's early advantages was that it netted in the section/squad. The LWCLU does the same for the section/squad when it is dismounted.

The same launcher can also be networked, including under FAAD C2, allowing the operator to receive data-linked targeting information from a host of off-board sensors, including those operated by different branches of the military. While it’s unclear exactly which third-party sources would generally be available to an LWCLU/Stinger combination, the fact that this is even available as an option is a significant advance over the basic Stinger. Even without additional targeting input, the LWCLU targeting system is far more advanced, including a digital compass and a datalink to a soldier’s tactical radio.

The March 2021 testing milestone took place at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida and involved soldiers from the Mississippi National Guard. The test also made use of a simulated Lockheed Martin AN/MPQ-64 Sentinel battlefield radar, while the UAV target was tracked using Northrop Grumman’s Forward Area Air Defense Command and Control, or FAAD C2, architecture. FAAD C2 is designed to integrate short-range air defense (SHORAD), counter-rocket, artillery, and mortar (C-RAM), and counter-unmanned aircraft systems (C-UAS) systems, from initial detection of a threat through to interception.

Has anyone mentioned lately that we have none of the above nor their NATO brethren except what's on our frigates?

Has anyone noted that the stuff we fire from frigates and aircraft can be netted in and launched from trucks ashore using the networks the navy currently employs?

Navy Unveils Truck-Mounted SM-6 Missile Launcher In European Test

Finally, has anyone noticed how exquisite guns keep breaking down faster than the enemy can put them out of action. And that missiles can stand in for both guns and aircraft

Daily Kos: The Ukraine updates

<big>This is the full listing of the major articles/updates by kos, Mark Sumner, Barbara Morrill, and Hunter on the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Daily Kos evening summary diaries are not included in this compilation. <br><br> The introductory Diary for this group is <strong>The Ukraine...

www.dailykos.com

 

[markppcli]

Fair comment but does air superiority mean what we though it meant?

Perhaps air superiority begins with a CLU and a Stinger for every infantry section.

Not for being permissive to air mobile operations it doesn’t.

That was prior to Feb 24th 2022.

What changed wrt to air superiority there ? What air mobile operations have been successful in an air parity environment ?