Merlin vs Mi-8MTV

[SeaKingTacco]

CTD-

I will put this as precisely as I can:  You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

You make it seem like Test, Evaluation, Operational Airworthiness and buying new airframes or heavily modifying old ones are a mere "wave of the magic wand" and everything will work out just fine.  It is most assuredly not.  I'm not going to sit here and defend 1 Cdn Air Div, but the fact that you identified them as the culprit shows how little you know- this is probably the only time in recent history that HQ is actually relatively innocent of what you are charging.  DAR in CAS buys airplanes;  AETE in conjunction with the applicable TEFs or EUs test them; DGAEM (or whatever they are called this week) grant airworthiness.  1 Cdn Air Div is just a force generator (or a force employer if it is a NORAD/CANADACOM mission), much like 1 Bde provides troops to deploy when ordered. 1 Bde, you will note, does not buy, test or modify armoured vehicles (generally speaking).

All of this probably sounds like a run around, but it is not.  I can only really speak about the Sea King situation (but I have heard similar stories from the Herc, Aurora and Griffon fleets)- we are just barely holding on as a flying force, after years of neglect, trying desperately to preserve enough expertise to get us to a new airframe in 2008-2010, when can probably start to provide some real capability to the Army and Navy after years of only pretending to.  You pressure us hard enough right now with another operation, and you risk any future capability and the success of a 4 billion dollar contract- IMHO only.  Again, it is not a matter of wanting to help the Army- it is matter of what we can realistically bring to the table that would actually be useful and timely.

I appreciate that you want to see the Air Force get involved in the fight- I suggest to you that we already are.  Our Hercs are literally flying themselves to pieces supporting the operation (8 Wing is disappearing up their own arse right now).  You may not like Spewer, but that also soaks up significant Air Force manpower (we argue separately whether that should even be the case, but I digress).  The Army is carrying the fight in Afghanistan-stipulated.  I would suggest that the Air Force is reconstituting right now to be able to go big in the 2009-2012 timeframe.  Have some patience, please!

 

[childs56]

my only problem is that the Airforce was and still is stuck into a Cold War mode of operations. It is all or nothing for them. The problem is it is nothing for them in reguards to certain aspects of what they are doing.
My biggest concern of what I did see and still see is that those in charge are reluctant to try something new and or adapt what they already have to support what is happening. Again it is a all or nothing.

I know how much politicle crap there is dealing with the military, I always had, but once I got into the Airforce it got much worse. I seen with my own two eyes and heard with my own two ears what we had, and what we wanted. Yet no one fought for it. Hence we have nothing.

Slowly due to outside operational requirements the Airforce is being re-equipped with a small but valuable force. Unfortunatly this could have been years ago if they had of re written the doctrine and then enforced it. Instead they relied on old doctrine for over all operations and did not upgrade to where they should have gone. Unfotunatly it takes years to develop what yo uneed down the road for an effective Airforce.

One thing everyone must remember is I do not mean to insult the General Core of Officers and Enlisted memebers who with out doubt follow what they are told.
But as many on this site have seen even when you are being told what is happening by your COC it seems to come around as a shock, as to what actually happens. For example The new Hercs, Chinooks, and the Globemasters.
Many on here in the know didn't know. That to me shows that the COC no matter what can and will not disclose it's own intentions untill they are done. Some offficer at a meeting where the CAS states we are not going to get new platforms, then a few months later the CDS anounces a major purchase of significant amount of needed airframes.

We have to agree to disagree on this subject.
I am no longer in the Miltiary and to be honest dont want to be back there. to many politics and to many I know you dont know.

Cheers all. Hopefully when the new Airframes show up we can all gather for a drink and cheer for the highly prized platforms.

 

 

[Loachman]

It's more politicians than anything that decide what we get, how much we get, how many people we get to do it with, and how much money we get to fund the whole deal.

Remember the Chretien years?

It'll take us a decade at least to recover from that.

Griffon was bought under a certain set of assumptions and in the political environment of the late eighties/beginning of the nineties ("peace dividend", peacekeeping missions, Oka/Akwesasne, a defence minister trying to buy votes in his riding). Nobody considered fighting in Afghanistan fifteen years ago.

Given what we've gone through, we're doing the best that we can.

Manpower in 1 Wing is extremely tight. This is why 444 Squadron (a base rescue squadron) and the two reserve-heavy squadrons (400 and 438) are running three UAV rotos until the current end of the Afghan mission. We would certainly not be able to man that AND a helicopter capability simultaneously. Bosnia came close to ruining 1 Wing, as the Sinai and Honduras combo came close to ruining 10 TAG around a decade before. We were a small community then, and we're a much smaller community now.

Trying to slap new engines into or new blades onto dated airframes is ludicrous - or else everybody would be doing it. Buying new machines would be quicker, cheaper, and better - but that's a government decision, not a CF one. And they've got to give us more PYs too, if anybody wants more out of us. So far there's no hint of any of that happening.

There's at least one Lab in the CF still, by the way, and it's parked not too far from me. Bringing it back to airworthiness is a non-starter for many reasons.

 

[childs56]

You guys are totally correct. I really have not a clue what it is I am talking about. All I talk is in simple terms that seems to rile up those who seem to be in the know of present, and future operations and equipment.
If any of you take offence to what I have said I am sorry, not trying to insult anyone. 
Just trying to add a different angle on the present topic.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

CTD-

I admire your enthusiasm.  What I am saying (along with a few others) is that there are not really a bunch of simple fixes- we got into this mess of the space of a decade or more.  It is going to take some time to buy and train our way out of it.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

This thread brings up a question I've long been asking myself, and I hope someone on army.ca can give me a convincing answer.  If we can deploy Leopard tanks to A'stan (a move which i applauded very loudly on this site), then why can't we deploy CF18's?

I may be able to answer that question: Right now, the CF-188 fleet is in the midst of a much needed upgrade that won't be finished until 2009. I know some Hornet's have received the complete upgrades, but I'm not sure if there are sufficient aircraft to sustain the deployment of a six-pack overseas for any length of time. Not much sense to deploy aircraft all the way overseas and then bring them back six-months later.

(Go here to a CASR article that gives some background to the upgrades: http://www.sfu.ca/casr/id-cf18-oag1.htm)

Besides the fact as to whether more CAS aircraft are required in Afghanistan, if we did send CF-188's/CP-140's over overseas, other consideration that have to be taken into account include:
- Where would we base them?  In Afghanistan? Outside Afghanistan?
- Is there space available? Six CF-188's may not take up much ramp space, but you also need the required hanger/maintenance areas, quarters for the pilots/crew, security, re-supply, money!! and political will.

The same goes for the CP-140 Aurora, even more so. Its a big aircraft and takes up lots of ramp space!  It's also in the midst of a much needed upgrade to convert them into "multi-mission aircraft that can provide over-land surveillance and reconnaissance in addition to its traditional coastal functions." Again, not sure how many have been upgraded and the overall status of the program.

So its not just a matter of deploying a bunch of aircraft overseas; there is a whole lot of details that have to be worked out. As for the will to deploy them overseas? I will say this, I worked for many years in various squadrons and Air Force headquarters and I can say that the Air Force would "Love" to be able deploy aircraft overseas in support of the ground troops, but as I listed above there is a whole lot of factors to be taken into consideration.

I'll leave it there for now. Got to get ready to go to work!