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Mindset of the antiwar crowd

GreyMatter said:
Too many of your comments conclude with this line of reasoning.  Just because you yourself are unaware of something doesnt mean it doesnt exist or isnt true.   

My point is just that with no evidence that the CPA are on OW or any other provincial social assistance plan, it is prejudicial to suggest that they are, based on the specific case of the Squamish Five. It's really easy to condemn people based on our prejudices. I know I do it. It's a lot harder to assess people objectively and based on evidence. Especially if they smell, aren't clean, drool or differ from my worldview in some way.
 
You know I tried I really tried I even followed my own sage advice and refrained from posting yesterday. But sometimes to quote Top Gun "I saw the shot I had to take it."  8)

And I am also relatively conversant with OW and ODSP as I interact with both recipients and local officials on a regular (i.e. weekly and often daily) basis.

Gee I’d love to interact with them only on a weekly and occasionally daily basis. You familiar with that Grimm’s tale about the husband and wife swapping jobs for a day.

Agreed they are two different programs with two different target groups. However, I have found recipients of ODSP are often quite capable of many things.
And so they should be, the social stigma of being labelled permanently unemployable aside but we’re off topic here.

Correct. It's a reasonable figure to use. It is not intended to 100% accurate, Feel free to provide the exact figure if you have it available. My point is that it is impossible for a single person to live on anything approaching the OW schedule.

Single person basic rate maximum $548.00, plus a drug card worth approx $500.00 a month in prescription costs and free emergency dental care. Going rate on the street for one in Toronto is $50.00 cash or so I’m told. I hear they go good with a bent script for percs. Add in a monthly maximum average of $250.00 for Employment related Expenses and another $250.00 max for Special Diet for a single and in theory one can survive especially with casual income either declared or not.. Rates go up proportionately for families. This includes the whopping 3% increase last year, another 2% is slated for the Fall, probably coincidentally just before the election.

Granted, but from officials in our county (Grey) the amount of fraud has decreased. According to this,

http://dawn.thot.net/Kimberly_Rogers/wb-qa.html

the amount is much smaller. More recent statistics are welcome.

Oh I learned how to play with stats in higher reading and writing school too. The numbers you quote give approx 12% Province wide were investigated. In many cases charges were not laid as it would be prohibitive to do so. The cost of a criminal proceeding was more than the fraud, Easier and more effective to attempt to recover the funds via administrative process.

Besides Provincial averages and/or states from a rural county out in cottage country compared to Downtown TO are like comparing apples and oranges. What are the numbers of meth addicts and HIV infected crack whores you have up there compared to the population as a whole. For that matter what’s your numbers like vis avis decent large single parent refugee families trying to get off the system.

When it is driven by humger or desperation, those mitigating circumstances have a significant bearing.

Something that I assure you is taken into account when deciding to prosecute or not. See my previous point.

I disagree. What is not being asked is if the system is sufficient in the first place. From my years of experience, including the "salad days" of the Rae government, it is not.

Actually things were worse for the poor under Uncle Bobby. Mind if you could stick your muzzle into the poverty trough he created you were set for life or at least a few years. The only jobs created with Jobs Ontario were the various levels of brokers, sub brokers and sub sub brokers to administer it. They should have stayed with it’s original name Jobs Incentive Program (JIP). OW is flawed and has been gamed and abused but it does work better.

OCAP got the headlines, but the information was/is also made available through government-funded Community Legal Clinics and Legal Aid Ontario.

Of course they found the loopholes. OCAP may be arrogant but no one accuses them of being stupid. It was similar to the Osgood hall Law student a few years back who wrote a treatise on how to defend against welfare fraud during the zero tolerance days. It was a very popular document among several downtown TO law offices as I recall. Interesting read, but I would have concentrated more on hard details and less on political motivated filler myself Maybe the movie will be better? 

Possible. But absent proof...

This phrase is starting to get overused here. I guess one could say absent proof there is no God, actually some do, maybe I’m wasting my time in Church on Sundays. I could worship my nine iron.

Depends. The system is currently slow enough and obtuse enough that one would probably not even worry. BTW, it might be possible to make a Charter argument on restriction of freedom of movement... but that's for a lawyer to explore.

Well actually the system ain’t that slow or it isn’t if those running it are on the ball. And it’s not a violation of one’s charter rights to attempt to enforce terms of a contract as far as I know. OW recipients receive assistance from the municipality they reside in and are required to participate in whatever approved programs are set up by said municipality and/or the Provincial government. Failing to do so including not receiving prior approval to leave said municipality temporarily can be considered grounds for cancellation of benefits.

And absent a criminal charge in the case we are discussion, raising such questions is disingenious at best and highly judgemental at worst. Most people who come to my office on ODSP and OW are not schemers, fraudsters or criminals. They are people who need more of a hand up than a hand out. I have found if I treat them with dignity they respond with dignity.

But were not talking about most people here, just a specific few. As it is I’m not quite sure if Brett Taylor, Judy Hanson and their fellow travellers were charged with welfare fraud or not. However considering the numerous weapons charges, and the blowing up of several Vancouver stores, BC Hydro substations and the Litton plant in TO, I’m sure such charges if any were pretty far down on the docket. As for the Tigers charges were laid, and that particular little fund raising technique/extortion of fearful refugee familes isn’t being used now.

And absent any proof, it's idle speculation.... one that does no dignity to either the poor in this country or the disabled.or union members.

There's that phrase again. As a rule I adhere to the rules taught to me by my parents, treat everyone with respect and dignity until given cause to do otherwise. That even goes for sanctimonious anonymous Internet posters.

Actually it’s not idle speculation. What part of the “I’m the resident SME in this field” escaped you? For obvious reason including we' re off topic here I’m not providing more details over these means. You can either accept I do what I’m talking about or not. The site owner and/or the other staff will confirm my bonafides in this area.

Abusing a system set up to help alleviate those less fortunate than the rest of society whether for so called political reason or just personal gain is the real disservice and damage to dignity, mind that’s just my thoughts on the matter.

Yes. I know a number of them in this city. Some have been through rehab like it's a revolving door. Some make it. Some don't. Some have AIDS. Some don't. But not everyone on OW or ODSP is a hooker or a drug addict, either.

And no one said they were, just like no one is implying oh I don’t know that all members of the legal profession are pompous bloodsucking wastes of breathable oxygen. Some maybe, but some are dedicated caring professionals. Some teachers are good, others just lazy Ritalin pushers. See where I'm going with this.

For the reord I've dealt with persons living with HIV AIDS on a continual basis for a damn long time now and by choice including many who are addicts and/or in the sex trade. Some are some are fantastic persons dealing with a horrible situation with grace and dignity, mind so are many persons dying of cancer. Others are intolerable asshats. Same can be said for the meth addicts, coke heads, peodephiles and assorted social flotsam and jetsom that ain't hanging around your street corner I'll bet. Add in the impoverished refugees who were lied to by Papa Doc Cretin, Mr Dithers and their ilk about "yes you can be a Doctor, Enginer whatever here" and then found out surprise we were just fooling. Anyone attempting to deal in absolutes here needs to get the prescription changed on their rose coloured glasses.

My point is just that with no evidence that the CPA are on OW or any other provincial social assistance plan, it is prejudicial to suggest that they are, based on the specific case of the Squamish Five. It's really easy to condemn people based on our prejudices. I know I do it. It's a lot harder to assess people objectively and based on evidence. Especially if they smell, aren't clean, drool or differ from my worldview in some way.

Too true, preconceived prejudices are a wonderful thing. Like someone may find it all too easy to presume that all these army.ca right wing Harper loving gun loving trailer park trash types ain’t got no compassion for the those poor downtrodden members of society. That right is reserved solely for a certain educated liberal elite with a guilt complex. Please give me a break.

Here endeth the lesson.

Fellow mods and members my apologies for taking this one way off the tracks.
 
WOW stop this thread, if the united states learns that we harbor this Al-Qaeda-linked terrorist cell they're going to bomb/invade us. And i'm not in the mood to fight the united states army for a decade, my wife wouldn't be happy.
 
SiG_22_Qc said:
WOW stop this thread, if the united states learns that we harbor this Al-Qaeda-linked terrorist cell they're going to bomb/invade us. And i'm not in the mood to fight the united states army for a decade, my wife wouldn't be happy.

Mine might if it got me off the couch ;D
 
SiG_22_Qc said:
WOW stop this thread, if the united states learns that we harbor this Al-Qaeda-linked terrorist cell they're going to bomb/invade us. And i'm not in the mood to fight the united states army for a decade, my wife wouldn't be happy.

What...again!!??
 
just wondering historically if ur in favour of any wars?

I msged someone on this site who was writing some wierd stuff (since banned) and got this back

I believe in rebellion against an unjust authority, but do not believe in war.  There is no such thing as a "just war". 

I don't believe that firebombing Dresden and killing hundreds of thousands of people was morally right. I don't think the nuclear bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was right either.  By doing those things, we display the very lack of humanity that we are supposed to be opposing. 

On a general level, what could possibly be moral (or morally necessary) about one young man being sent into battle, by his leader, to shoot at (or be killed by) other young men who are similarly commanded by their own leader to do the same?  For what purpose? 

War protects the rich and powerful and sacrifices the weak.  War pits one section of humanity against another despite the fact that we're all in this together.  Lasting peace can only be achieved through reason, understanding, tolerance, generosity, intellect and yes, sacrfice, but not the kind of sacrifices that Hillier and co talk about.

If you want to know what I mean, rent the movie Gandhi.

I just thinks this shows the unrealistic worldview.
If you mentioned that say the oldest Kennedy kid died in a bomber or the upper class british destoryed in ww1 I am sure he would say that these guy didnt care about the country and only wanted to advance their positions.

They also equate Dresden and Tokyo with the entire war and offer no other realistic solutions.

The main point though is that they feel no war can be 100% morally just (bc that doesnt exist) then there are no wars worth fighting.

Feel free to get rid of this if you think its pointless mods
i just kinda found it intresting.
 
Actually - it is kind of interesting.

During my early teen years (late stages of the Vietnam War), and shortly after that war ended - I took part in protests against the Vietnam war and "Imperialist Oppression".  I had NO political knowledge worth speaking of - I just wanted to get laid - not an unusual aspiration for one that age (worked, too!!)  I was FULL of "moral indignity", and "sympathy for the downtrodden" - I was a fairly successful rabble rouser in my small circle of influence - unfortunately, I didn't have a CLUE what I was talking about (didn't matter, though - I still got laid).

As I've lived and been to places other than Canada - it's become very apparent to me that not everybody reacts to the "peace message" - many need a 20lb sledge between the eyes before they can start to listen to an opposing point of view.  Others will NEVER hear the "peace message" - they just need a 5.56 hole between the eyes.

I never cease to be amazed by the level of ignorance and indignation expressed by my "fellow citizens" of Canada when the conversation turns to armed conflict.  They miss the whole point - if THAT guy wasn't shooting at ME, I wouldn't be shooting at HIM.  In fact - I'm so dismayed by that level of ignorance that I rarely engage in such conversation.
 
There are very few men who have been to war who really want or like war, but ironically, many of those people now understand that there is a reason for war.  While you can argue against or for it, I definitely agree with Roy on the fact that there are people out there who need to be stopped, but I rather 25mm instead of 5.56.  There will always be a bully (and I am being nice) out there who doesn't give a damn about other people or their rights and if we (as soldiers) don't try to stop it, then how can we live with ourselves.  I truly believe that it will never be stopped as a whole, and for those who believe that if we just talk to one another then we can live in peace, try looking a suicide bomber in the eye before he blows himself up.  There is no "if you go over there and I stay here, we can coexist", they want us to disappear so that they can carry on with what they believe to be right (in a perverted way).

I had a discussion with some ladies from a University once who knew that I had been overseas and they couldn't understand why Canada was not peacekeeping.  That we were just pawns of Bush.  While I wanted to get "laid" as well, I very quickly lost interest in the issue when they wanted us to talk to the TB and work it out like reasonable human beings.  They missed the fact that they are not reasonable human beings.

Anyway, enough ranting...it does get the heartrate up though.  Cheers
 
Roy, you make a brilliant point! As a young bloke, the majority of my friends are at uni, and like you said, it often seems the majority of protesting is done for protesting's sake. Because thats what they're supposed to do at uni, protest something, grow their hair and eat lentils (hair growing is optional, lentils are compulsory). "Sod the truth, all wars are bad and all governments are full of fascists, burn the bastards down!"
They don't understand the ramification and they often don't have a clue what they're talking about. You can scream "George Bush is a fascist war criminal!", "No blood for Oil!" and "Howard lied about Iraq" as much as you like, it doesn't mean that you have a clue about whats going on and it definitely doesn't make life better for that little family cowering in some side street in Baghdad, waiting for some Sunni/Shiite militia unit to kick in the door and execute them. I cant stop you from yelling it, but i can lead a counter march protesting "Equal rights for gay, black whales". It'll have about as much meaning as your march.
Like you said, peace has to be a two sided thing. Saying to someone "Lets live happily together" is no good if old mate says "Bugger that, i going to smash your face in!".

Being opposed to something for the sake of it is fashionable. Like you say Roy, you protested to get a root, and you got it (well done, was she a hippy chick? ;D).
You've got to give them something tho, they are "strong in their ignorance". Any argument about Iraq with my ex was always propped up by her saying "Their were no WMD's!" and me saying "Thats because the Kurds copped them but at least we got rid of an evil dictator and his mental family of murderers". It didnt matter though, she was so fundamentally opposed to wars that even when she heard about my Canadian mates getting the chop all she could say was "Its not like you didnt expect it"....funnily enough, we broke up not long after that.

Anyway, its my view that you cant argue with close minded ignorance. We all just happen to be lucky enough to be surrounded by a public that expects everyone in the world is like them and doesnt want war.
As John Wayne says, "Life's hard, its especially hard if your stupid".
 
I think Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian summed up my feelings pretty accurately on this subject:

It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way.

I've often had this discussion with friends of mine who are peace activists and they always espouse the view that the world would be a much better place if world leaders could just talk out their problems. I agree this would be highly desirable and some sort of utopian ideal, but I think it's massively unrealistic. I don't understand the viewpoint that discussion could magically end all world conflict. I think diplomacy and rational discussion are an important part of affairs between any groups but what it all boils down to is that one party is inevitably going to be unsatisfied with the status quo and resort to armed conflict. It's human nature and it's unavoidable.

I think this element is something that most anti-war activists just can't comprehend. The entire idea is out of their realm of understanding. Peace is a great ideal and something we should always strive for, but not preparing for war is foolish abandon.
 
I've always been morbidly fascinated by how "out there" the peacenik point of view is.
My desire is to find a way to explain what's going on to that crowd.
Looking for the facts is what brought me to ARMY.ca

Generally their understanding is about two sentences deep ( a headline and maybe a caption  )
and is centered on feelings.  I swapped PMs with the one who's name shall not be mentioned
again also.  Facts were of no interest to him. He is completely unaware of how he benefits from military actions of the past.
I would like to introduce "him" to a friend of mine who's mother escaped detention and execution by the Japanese
ONLY because of the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan.

My little sister just glazes over and says "why can't we all just get along?".
She can't believe what her life could become if she were not protected.

It's easier to blame our government and the US government than to understand
that there are real live bad guys in other parts of the world.

My best pitch starts with,"if something bad is happening you call the cops,right?"
My pitch is a work in progress. ;D


 
 
 
Hale said:
... Like you say Roy, you protested to get a root, and you got it (well done, was she a hippy chick? ;D).
...

Well - one doesn't like to brag (especially 30 years later) - but the question is more properly "Were they hippy chicks).

The answer is "Yes".
 
Roy Harding said:
Well - one doesn't like to brag (especially 30 years later) - but the question is more properly "Were they hippy chicks).

The answer is "Yes".
Wow, a threesome, those '70's were a crazy time  ;D ;). I'm surprised you remember anything after all that acid....
Sorry, couldnt resist, i'm sure you didnt do acid and that you did "it" more then once in the 70's...

Lets PROTEST something! Who's with me? All the anti-war protesting spots are taken... anti-gun isnt till next sunday...Fascist American imperialism, hmm, thats been done to death lately...I'm scraping the bottle of the barrel here...hmm... i know! EQUAL RIGHTS FOR GAY BLACK WHALES! EQUAL RIGHTS FOR GAY BLACK WHALES.....
 
Be careful not to conflate the 'antiwar' crowd, it is diverse; just like the 'military', 'conservative', 'liberal' crowd are all diverse.  The peace movement is not entirely made up of eighteen year old idealist hippie chicks (though I personally think that would be pretty sweet) that can't argue their way out of a paper bag. 
 
Hale said:
Wow, a threesome, those '70's were a crazy time  ;D ;). I'm surprised you remember anything after all that acid....
Sorry, couldnt resist, i'm sure you didnt do acid and that you did "it" more then once in the 70's...

Lets PROTEST something! Who's with me? All the anti-war protesting spots are taken... anti-gun isnt till next sunday...Fascist American imperialism, hmm, thats been done to death lately...I'm scraping the bottle of the barrel here...hmm... i know! EQUAL RIGHTS FOR GAY BLACK WHALES! EQUAL RIGHTS FOR GAY BLACK WHALES.....

Who said anything about only a "three" some?

All joking aside - it is a very true fact that MANY (not all) of the young folk involved in protest movements are motivated by factors OTHER than what the protest is about.

This has been the norm for thousands of years - I don't see it changing any time soon.  Those currently involved in such protests will deny it, of course - but ask them again in 30 years.

As a result of my personal experience (and that of others whom I respect) I don't give a lot of credence to student protests - basically, I don't believe they understand whatever cause they purport to support.

Roy
 
Any protestor who is a student in university (it seems most of them come from there) must not be much of a student. If you're not doing homework, your working to pay tuition (which is lots of $$$). If you're not working, you're out partying. Any time other than this is occupied by sleep or bussing to these aforementioned tasks. So how do these students find time to go throw rocks at cops and block traffic? Say what you will of their lousy political, hygenic, social, world views and poor grasp or reality, they rock at time management.  :P
 
DaveTee said:
Say what you will of their lousy political, hygenic, social, world views and poor grasp or reality, they rock at time management.  :P

Not really most are professional students in the 7th or 8th year of their BA program. ::)
 
The thing about revolutionaries is the have no understanding of history,
if they did they would realise that if the get their wish and the revolution
should come to pass they would be the first against the wall.Stalin did it,
Mao did it,even Castro did it,Ho Chi Min was a little smarter and let the
Americans do it for him by launching the Tet offensive and getting rid of
the Viet Cong before he took over the south.They do not seem to realise
that they are merely tools in someones political agenda,Lenin`s usefull
idiots.
                    Regards
 
>If you want to know what I mean, rent the movie Gandhi.

Oh, please please please please PLEASE go out and put an end to war.  Go to the Sudan and conduct a sit-down blockade of some Sudanese gun trucks, for example.  Gandhi faced down the British.  Now it's time for those who worship his principles and traditions to go face down all the other guys with guns in various parts of the world.  Go forth and obstruct them while they try to make war.  And get some sun, since you look a little pale.
 
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