Ranking females in the Canadian Army...

[Good2Golf]

People like this take themselves too seriously.

I wonder how said MWO would feel if a 2nd Lieutenant stood her at attention and proceeded to yell at her for not doing some quirky salutation.

Colonel Glover Johns Rule of Leadership #12:

13. Yelling detracts from your dignity; take men aside to counsel them.

Infanteer, good words to live by.   Blatant/overt jacking up of anyone that isn't deliberately being a smart ass or willfully disrespectful does, in my opinion, not show very well on the individual [of course the Sergeant-Major jacking up "the villiage idiot" on the parade square is the obvious exception ].   Re: the aforementioned female MWO and the stopping of troops in the hallway to be followed with a dismissive "whatever"....that is not on.  I would take said MWO aside quietly and make it clear to her that such behaviour is not at all condusive to an atmosphere of respect amongst subordinates, peer and superiors and that she would be best served in reconsidering the manner in which she conducted herself with the troops, and to have a nice day as I dismissed her.   I have little time for people who think more of themselves and their stature than the task at hand...   My grandfather (a CO of the 2nd Bn Regina Rifles in WW2) passed on very valuable teachings to me about the relationships between the men and senior non-commissioned members and between officers and NCMs.   At no time, he said, is there any excuse for failing to treat any subordinate respectfully...he included trivial rank-related piss ons in that category.   Years (many) ago, I spoke with an RSM who had served with my grandfather and we had a good chat on that very subject.   It is sometimes hard to define, but you just know when a jacking up is warranted and appreciate when it is done without denegrating the individual while still making sure that the fault is not passed.

Mein zwei centen...

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Speaking of jackings.  This past Mon we had a fire alarm and did our thing and formed up on the parade square.  About 5 min later the RSM came out with the phone orderly and had him (phone bitch) address the company and explain how he set the fire alarm off by burning popcorn in the microwave.  Sad thing was is that this guy had been doing phone orderly for over a month before this happened.  Best part was the RSM jacking him up in front of everyone for a f'd up collar while his own collar was pouched. 

 

[Cliffy433]

Hmmm... I'm gonna go with the guy who said, "Ask before you get jacked" - it's served me well.  Most SNCOs know what we're going through, and a polite, "How would you like to be addressed, [insert rank here]" is NOT technically incorrect.  It is my understanding that when an appointment has been made - ie: CSM or RSM, that is the "more" correct - and gender neutral.  QMs, and CQs I've spoken to, have NEVER minded being called QM or CQ - again, if you're polite, and it's said with respect, it's all good.

As for groups of officers, I've heard of the "Gentlemen" not "Sirs" thing before, but what if the group is mixed genders?  Do female officers really want "Ladies" used?  Hmmm... when approaching a group of officers, I salute, make eye contact with the Snr Officer and use either "Sir" or "Ma'am" - whichever is appropriate, as they will be the one returning the salute.  Haven't been jacked yet.

tlm.

 

[alan_li_13]

What about using "Ladies and Gentleman"
Also, is it costumary to say "Thank you" when you receive a salute/check arms, or when it is returned by an officer?

 

[bossi]

What about using "Ladies and Gentleman"
Also, is it costumary to say "Thank you" when you receive a salute/check arms, or when it is returned by an officer?

Depends on how much time you've got to spend on formalities ... sometimes "Okay, Everybody ..." is all you've got time for.

Back when I was an officer cadet I was taught that it's polite for officers to say "Thank you" when receiving compliments (which include salutes).

 

[Scott]

Related thread for you, rifle team captain, here: http://army.ca/forums/threads/25817.0.html

 

[pbi]

Also, is it costumary to say "Thank you" when you receive a salute/check arms, or when it is returned by an officer?

I believe we've beaten this one to death already elsewhere.

Cheers.

 

[Scott]

I pointed him to the protocol thread with the link in my last, pbi.

 

[ibilola]

I have spent a few years in Inf battalions and I can assure you that the CSMs and the QMSI are most definitely called "sir"   by the people below them. And, yes, you're right: all Army MWOs are not Sgts Maj: that wasn't my point. My point was that the person in the post was identified as "SSM" which to me means   "Squadron Sgt Maj". Now, most Sgts Maj that I have had the pleasure to know are quite proud of their appointment title and don't really want to be called "MWO".

Cheers.

Seems to be a great deal of confusion on how to address senior non-commissioned ranks in the Canadian Armed Forces. Why not go back to the British Army system of addressing WOs - 'Sir' if you are junior in rank, Appointment ('RSM' etc) or 'Mr' if you are an Officer.

 

[NMPeters]

As an officer, I would take offence to being called "Mr."

 

[Good2Golf]

Never said its wasn't done.  Just that it was incorrect.

It is definately easier to say "Yes sir" rather than "Yes Master Warrent Officer" in casual conversation and I think most MWO/WOs realize that.  It's a matter of real life, in the form of convienence or tradition, trumping the regulations.

Does the Air Force have Sgt Majors?  ... Actually  come to think of it it does or at least did, I know an ex-armoured fellow who was an Air Observer and has a jacket from 427 Sqn embriodered with SSM on the sleeve, he was the Sqadron Sgt Maj.  However he was Army.  I know the observers are gone, but what about the other cbt arms pers posted to Tac Hel Sqns, are they any sort of Sgt Maj?  Are pers who wear the Air Force uniform called Sgt Maj in any appointment when working within an Air Force unit?

Its all so confusing...and really, if you are respectful and only make a mistake once regarding someones appointment, ragging someone out just shows pettiness and possibly insecurity.

AmmoTech, I have only seen "LF" WOs, MWOs, CWOs at Tac Hel units addressed verbally as Sgt Maj (usually with no C or R), never a light blue WO/MWO/CWO.  If blue, then they are a SWO / SCWO. 

For those squadrons with a LF CWO, they would usually accept being called Seargent-Major (vice RSM) because they know that Air Force guys are at least trying to acknowledge LF experience and appointment vice "vanilla" CF-rank (well, that and the squadron isn't a regiment either).  If the RSM was older school, I would usually address him as Mr. Smith, vice just Sgt-Maj, since Regimental Sgt-Maj felt somewhat odd in a flying unit.

...now if the Tac Hel squadrons were renamed as "Aviation Regiments", I'd be the first one to address our CWOs as RSM.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[aesop081]

In the MPA and MH community we refer to MWO and CWO as "cheif" and adress them as such ....probably comes from our naval origins. You get some angry looks if you call them sir or MWO/CWO !!

 

[ibilola]

As an officer, I would take offence to being called "Mr."

No, what I meant was: an Officer could address a Warrant Officer by his appointment or as 'Mr'

 

[Gunner]

No, what I meant was: an Officer could address a Warrant Officer by his appointment or as 'Mr'

The only "WO" rank an officer would address as Mr is CWO.   For example, "Good morning Capt Smith" and the reply is "Good Morning Mister Brown".   More likely the CWO will be referred to by his appointment.

Officers in the rank of Lt and below can be referred to as Mister by their seniors or juniors..

 

[ibilola]

Gunner

I understand what you are saying.

The point I was trying to make about MWOs (in my previous posting) was that if they were all addressed as 'Sir' (like WOs in the British Armed Forces), junior ranks wouldn't have a problem in knowing how to address them.

 

[Armymedic]

Generally, I rank females in the CF on the same 1 to 10 scale as I do civilian women....

But generally women in uniform get lower ratings cause the CADPAT uniform usually is a bit baggy. I know this is biased and I should be ashamed of myself, but if the uniforms fir better, I am sure they could get a higher score.