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Posted by "Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com> on Sun, 5 Nov 2000 19:24:05 -0700
Dulce et Decorum Est Wilfred Owen
"Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we
cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood shod. All went lame all blind
Drunk with fatigue deaf even to the hoots
Of gas shells dropping softly behind.
Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound‘ring like a man in fire or lime . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil‘s sick of sin
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, -
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori."
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Posted by "Gow" <jgow@home.com> on Sat, 11 Nov 2000 00:51:05 -0500
I feel priviledged to be a Canadian...somehow our nation finds it
possible to do what nobody really wants to do, but everyone needs to do,
and anyone could help with..and so few Canadians seem to give it a
thought...but perhaps today, we might think...
So on 11 November, I remember my Grandfather, a member of the "Suicide
Battalion" and others..his stories, not easily granted from him..of
the Somme, Ypres, Passchendale, and Vimy..how I, as a very
impressionable and you will gather, not particularly bright youth, sat
and listened, if and when he spoke..at Passchendale, digging hard to
make a trench a "dud" shell landing six feet away picking it up and
hurling it down the hill, and watching it explode at the bottom of the
slope yet enduring scars on the hands forever...strapping a piss soaked
scarf from home around your mouth and nose at Ypres, so as to avert the
effects of the gas, for about a day and a half...of being advised at the
Somme that their battalion was "reserve", and spending the night digging
a big trench, overhead cover, sleeping mount etc and being shaken awake
at 0400, because the casualties were so bad the reserves were being
committed to save the French..of being the acting CQ of the company at
Vimy, and saying "of 130 men who charged up that hill, at noon, there
were three of us on the top without wounds"..on a lighter side, of being
caught in a bombardment, while bringing up the company‘s rum issue, with
a buddy, and retiring to the forward trench position to enjoy their "ill
gotten" gains...and being faced with a German attack...so fight through
it how fast you grow sober, he said and being "mentioned" no medals
for this.
Come back to Canada...where you really had nothing... but, as he put it,
a chance...because in the "Old Country" you were already pegged at what
you could, and would, be..to the Influenza
Epidemic...unemployment....lack of real progress and unrecoginitian of
the veteran..there were so many of them..and then Round Two, WWII, where
your kids had to go back...
So he told my Dad and my Uncle "Anything but the Infantry"..as a
Father, you cannot blame him..it takes balls to be Infantryand when you
have kids, you understand horrible costs....but..... My Dad was the
oldest...was/is pretty technically smart, joined the Air Force,
volunteered into India, of all places..after drinking five gallons of
water to meet minimum weight requirements remember this was the "Dirty
Thirties", people on the Prairies were starving, and relying on
Maritimers that sent dried salt cod as "relief"nail it to a pine
plank, soak it overnight in a bathtuib, discard the fish, boil the
plank, and eat it, was his advice, having endured it Came back ten
pounds lighter than his initial weight trying to qualify to join...won‘t
go into what he found there....
Just, on this day 11 November, REMEMBER!
These are indicative of the people that made our country...
Our enjoyment of that country remains at their cost...
There does seem blood on my Poppy...
John
I feel priviledged to be a Canadian...somehow our
nation finds
it possible to do what nobody really wants to do, but everyone needs to
do, and
anyone could help with..and so few Canadians seem to give it a
thought...but
perhaps today, we might think...
So on 11 November, I remember my Grandfather, a
member of the
"Suicide Battalion" and others..his stories, not easily granted from
him..of
the Somme, Ypres, Passchendale, and Vimy..how I, as a very
impressionable and
you will gather, not particularly bright youth, sat and listened, if
and when
he spoke..at Passchendale, digging hard to make a trench a "dud" shell
landing
six feet away picking it up and hurling it down the hill, and watching
it
explode at the bottom of the slope yet enduring scars on the hands
forever...strapping a piss soaked scarf from home around your mouth and
nose at
Ypres, so as to avert the effects of the gas, for about a day and a
half...of
being advised at the Somme that their battalion was "reserve", and
spending the
night digging a big trench, overhead cover, sleeping mount etc and
being shaken
awake at 0400, because the casualties were so bad the reserves were
being
committed to save the French..of being the acting CQ of the company at
Vimy, and
saying "of 130 men who charged up that hill, at noon, there were three
of us on
the top without wounds"..on a lighter side, of being caught in a
bombardment,
while bringing up the company‘s rum issue, with a buddy, and retiring to
the
forward trench position to enjoy their "ill gotten" gains...and being
faced with
a German attack...so fight through it how fast you grow sober, he
said
and being "mentioned" no medals for this.
Come back to Canada...where you really had
nothing... but, as
he put it, a chance...because in the "Old Country" you were already
pegged at
what you could, and would, be..to the Influenza
Epidemic...unemployment....lack
of real progress and unrecoginitian of the veteran..there were so many
of
them..and then Round Two, WWII, where your kids had to go
back...
So he told my Dad and my Uncle "Anything but
the
Infantry"..as a Father, you cannot blame him..it takes balls to be
Infantryand
when you have kids, you understand horrible costs....but..... My
Dad was
the oldest...was/is pretty technically smart, joined the Air Force,
volunteered
into India, of all places..after drinking five gallons of water to meet
minimum
weight requirements remember this was the "Dirty Thirties", people on
the
Prairies were starving, and relying on Maritimers that sent dried salt
cod as
"relief"nail it to a pine plank, soak it overnight in a
bathtuib,
discard the fish, boil the plank, and eat it, was his advice, having
endured
it Came back ten pounds lighter than his initial weight trying to
qualify
to join...won‘t go into what he found there....
Just, on this day 11 November,
REMEMBER!
These are indicative of the people that made our
country...
Our enjoyment of that country
remains at
their cost...
There does seem blood on my Poppy...
John
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Posted by "F. A." <zzzzzzz@telusplanet.net> on Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:42:16 -0700
--------------D2EA5647E8538DB97937A156
boundary="------------0C8302C2AA393890BC0D8494"
--------------0C8302C2AA393890BC0D8494
John,
Very well put! Let us never forget.
Francois
Gow wrote:
> I feel priviledged to be a Canadian...somehow our nation finds it
> possible to do what nobody really wants to do, but everyone needs to
> do, and anyone could help with..and so few Canadians seem to give it a
> thought...but perhaps today, we might think... So on 11 November, I
> remember my Grandfather, a member of the "Suicide Battalion" and
> others..his stories, not easily granted from him..of the Somme,
> Ypres, Passchendale, and Vimy..how I, as a very impressionable and
> you will gather, not particularly bright youth, sat and listened, if
> and when he spoke..at Passchendale, digging hard to make a trench a
> "dud" shell landing six feet away picking it up and hurling it down
> the hill, and watching it explode at the bottom of the slope yet
> enduring scars on the hands forever...strapping a piss soaked scarf
> from home around your mouth and nose at Ypres, so as to avert the
> effects of the gas, for about a day and a half...of being advised at
> the Somme that their battalion was "reserve", and spending the night
> digging a big trench, overhead cover, sleeping mount etc and being
> shaken awake at 0400, because the casualties were so bad the reserves
> were being committed to save the French..of being the acting CQ of the
> company at Vimy, and saying "of 130 men who charged up that hill, at
> noon, there were three of us on the top without wounds"..on a lighter
> side, of being caught in a bombardment, while bringing up the
> company‘s rum issue, with a buddy, and retiring to the forward trench
> position to enjoy their "ill gotten" gains...and being faced with a
> German attack...so fight through it how fast you grow sober, he
> said and being "mentioned" no medals for this. Come back to
> Canada...where you really had nothing... but, as he put it, a
> chance...because in the "Old Country" you were already pegged at what
> you could, and would, be..to the Influenza
> Epidemic...unemployment....lack of real progress and unrecoginitian of
> the veteran..there were so many of them..and then Round Two, WWII,
> where your kids had to go back... So he told my Dad and my Uncle
> "Anything but the Infantry"..as a Father, you cannot blame him..it
> takes balls to be Infantryand when you have kids, you understand
> horrible costs....but..... My Dad was the oldest...was/is pretty
> technically smart, joined the Air Force, volunteered into India, of
> all places..after drinking five gallons of water to meet minimum
> weight requirements remember this was the "Dirty Thirties", people on
> the Prairies were starving, and relying on Maritimers that sent dried
> salt cod as "relief"nail it to a pine plank, soak it overnight in a
> bathtuib, discard the fish, boil the plank, and eat it, was his
> advice, having endured it Came back ten pounds lighter than his
> initial weight trying to qualify to join...won‘t go into what he found
> there.... Just, on this day 11 November, REMEMBER! These are
> indicative of the people that made our country... Our enjoyment of
> that country remains at their cost... There does seem blood on my
> Poppy... John
--------------0C8302C2AA393890BC0D8494
John,
Very well put! Let us never
forget.
Francois
Gow wrote:
I feel priviledged
to be a Canadian...somehow our nation finds it possible to do what nobody
really wants to do, but everyone needs to do, and anyone could help with..and
so few Canadians seem to give it a thought...but perhaps today, we might
think...So on 11 November, I remember my Grandfather,
a member of the "Suicide Battalion" and others..his stories, not easily
granted from him..of the Somme, Ypres, Passchendale, and Vimy..how I, as
a very impressionable and you will gather, not particularly bright youth,
sat and listened, if and when he spoke..at Passchendale, digging hard to
make a trench a "dud" shell landing six feet away picking it up and hurling
it down the hill, and watching it explode at the bottom of the slope yet
enduring scars on the hands forever...strapping a piss soaked scarf from
home around your mouth and nose at Ypres, so as to avert the effects of
the gas, for about a day and a half...of being advised at the Somme that
their battalion was "reserve", and spending the night digging a big trench,
overhead cover, sleeping mount etc and being shaken awake at 0400, because
the casualties were so bad the reserves were being committed to save the
French..of being the acting CQ of the company at Vimy, and saying "of 130
men who charged up that hill, at noon, there were three of us on the top
without wounds"..on a lighter side, of being caught in a bombardment, while
bringing up the company‘s rum issue, with a buddy, and retiring to the
forward trench position to enjoy their "ill gotten" gains...and being faced
with a German attack...so fight through it how fast you grow sober,
he said and being "mentioned" no medals for this.Come
back to Canada...where you really had nothing... but, as he put it, a chance...because
in the "Old Country" you were already pegged at what you could, and would,
be..to the Influenza Epidemic...unemployment....lack of real progress and
unrecoginitian of the veteran..there were so many of them..and then Round
Two, WWII, where your kids had to go back...So
he told my Dad and my Uncle "Anything but the Infantry"..as a Father,
you cannot blame him..it takes balls to be Infantryand when you have kids,
you understand horrible costs....but..... My Dad was the oldest...was/is
pretty technically smart, joined the Air Force, volunteered into India,
of all places..after drinking five gallons of water to meet minimum weight
requirements remember this was the "Dirty Thirties", people on the Prairies
were starving, and relying on Maritimers that sent dried salt cod as "relief"nail
it to a pine plank, soak it overnight in a bathtuib, discard the
fish, boil the plank, and eat it, was his advice, having endured it
Came back ten pounds lighter than his initial weight trying to qualify
to join...won‘t go into what he found there....Just,
on this day 11 November, REMEMBER!These are
indicative of the people that made our country...Our
enjoyment of that country remains at their cost...There
does seem blood on my Poppy...John
--------------0C8302C2AA393890BC0D8494--
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Posted by "Wm. Durrant" <lgunnerl@home.com> on Sat, 11 Nov 2000 20:55:45 -0500
I am a long time member of this list and I usually just
monitor.........BUT
Never before in my life have I ever worked on Rememberance Day. My
children do not go to school, but to the cenotaph. If there has ever
been a sacred "holiday" in my home it is today.
The Army, however, saw fit this year to run a course weekend today in
Toronto which I had to attend. 47 seconds of my day was dedicated to
the fallen.
I am completely disgusted and disappointed that this was allowed to
happen and I thought that I‘d throw it to the list to see what you
think.
BTW, I did have it addressed beforehand....to no avail.
Pissed,
W.E. Durrant
Sgt.
BODY
BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top MARGIN-TOP: 50px FONT-SIZE: 10pt
MARGIN-LEFT: 25px COLOR: 000000 BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat
FONT-FAMILY: Fixedsys
I am a long time member of this list and I usually just
monitor.........BUT
Never before in my life have I ever worked on Rememberance
Day. My
children do not go to school, but to the cenotaph. If there has
ever been
a sacred "holiday" in my home it is today.
The Army, however, saw fit this year to run a course weekend today
in
Toronto which I had to attend. 47 seconds
of my
day was dedicated to the fallen.
I am completely disgusted and disappointed that this was allowed to
happen
and I thought that I‘d throw it to the list to see what you think.
BTW, I did have it addressed beforehand....to no avail.
Pissed,
W.E. Durrant
Sgt.
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Posted by Juno847627709@aol.com on Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:59:56 EST
I can‘t begin to tell everyone on this list how hearting warming,... and
heart wrenching it is to seeread all of you discuss how remembrance day is
so important to you. I‘m only sixteen years old, and I get sick to my stomach
when I think about how much kids my age take for granted, and really, don‘t
understand.
My grandparents lived in Holland during ‘Market Garden‘, and were so very
impressed with the Canadians that they came to make their life here, directly
following the war, as did so many other dutch families. I am so proud to be
joining the army that served so gallantly in those days when they were so
desparately needed. And I can‘t, for the life of me begin to imagine what it
must have been like, eventhough I am somewhat versed in Canadian military
history, however much less knowledgeable that most belonging to this list.
There are two things that bother me the most: 1 Veterans and the fallen
don‘t receive the respect they earned, and 2 I wish I could be certain that
my generation would be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, should we need
to. I don‘t for a minute, however, think that I really understand what making
the ultimate sacrifice means... Although I think I have a better idea than
most teens.
In closing, thankyou to those who‘ve served, and thankyou to those who,
if needed, would be on the first boat across the pond.
-Matt
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Posted by "Gow" <jgow@home.com> on Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:53:40 -0500
I, too, don‘t really know how to respond to you, given your age and
generation, even adding in your attitude, which is certainly positive.
As you go on in life, and read some of the histories, you‘ll find that the
histories of our forebears are not just heart wrenching, they are "gut
wrenching".. Which brings us to the question "Are we up to the job?" in our
current generation...
I was with the Reserves in ‘72, when a Captain, of some close aquaintance
with my family his brother was a Corporal in another Section of my
Platoon his other brother was a WO in the unit, was killed through what in
retrospect was a pretty dumb mistake...there has been a fair bit of grief
and self blaming on all parts through this..but the point being, his
parents, just like your grandparents, were Dutch Citizens of the day. They
told me that "A Bridge Too Far" is historically innaccurate...the parade of
geese throught the window of General Browning at the end...the geese were
all eaten in about 1942 they were eating boiled tulip bulbs, because they
tasted, more or less, like onions.
Once you are in the Forces, you will make friendships, and achieve
understandings of life, that may amaze you in retrospect. That the Sgt or
WO who is so dispicably critical, so demeaning, really does care about you
and any number of other people as well...that the Officer, who seems not
to care a jot, when the chips seem down, is actually forcing himself to look
at the "big picture"...he‘d give anything for your fortune...that it really
does become "a band of brothers" but unless you give it out, you‘ll never
get it back at least entirely.
And the cost may well be that you will never understand the rest of Canada,
where they may concern themselves with something so tawdry as "Tax Cuts"..
And, if the "Ultimate Sacrifice" means our friend or friends survive, even
at the cost of ourselves, its no question...
Please go forward and enjoy your career..you sound to me like the kind of
Canadian I can respect and admire..
John
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: Rememberance
> I can‘t begin to tell everyone on this list how hearting warming,... and
> heart wrenching it is to seeread all of you discuss how remembrance day
is
> so important to you. I‘m only sixteen years old, and I get sick to my
stomach
> when I think about how much kids my age take for granted, and really,
don‘t
> understand.
> My grandparents lived in Holland during ‘Market Garden‘, and were so
very
> impressed with the Canadians that they came to make their life here,
directly
> following the war, as did so many other dutch families. I am so proud to
be
> joining the army that served so gallantly in those days when they were so
> desparately needed. And I can‘t, for the life of me begin to imagine what
it
> must have been like, eventhough I am somewhat versed in Canadian military
> history, however much less knowledgeable that most belonging to this list.
> There are two things that bother me the most: 1 Veterans and the fallen
> don‘t receive the respect they earned, and 2 I wish I could be certain
that
> my generation would be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, should we
need
> to. I don‘t for a minute, however, think that I really understand what
making
> the ultimate sacrifice means... Although I think I have a better idea than
> most teens.
> In closing, thankyou to those who‘ve served, and thankyou to those
who,
> if needed, would be on the first boat across the pond.
> -Matt
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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Posted by "Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com> on Sun, 12 Nov 2000 09:20:38 GMT
An enlightening and moving exchange. Thank you both, gentlemen.
And, above all, a belated - but heart-felt - Remembrance Day "thank you" to
all Forces members, active and retired, on this list from one of the civvy
"lurkers".
- Joan
PS - Apologies for the number - and rather spastic nature - of my posts
tonight. Have been offline for the better part of a week and am now trying
to plow thru 153 messages from this list alone!
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Gow"
Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:
Subject: Re: Rememberance
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:53:40 -0500
I, too, don‘t really know how to respond to you, given your age and
generation, even adding in your attitude, which is certainly positive.
As you go on in life, and read some of the histories, you‘ll find that the
histories of our forebears are not just heart wrenching, they are "gut
wrenching".. Which brings us to the question "Are we up to the job?" in our
current generation...
I was with the Reserves in ‘72, when a Captain, of some close aquaintance
with my family his brother was a Corporal in another Section of my
Platoon his other brother was a WO in the unit, was killed through what in
retrospect was a pretty dumb mistake...there has been a fair bit of grief
and self blaming on all parts through this..but the point being, his
parents, just like your grandparents, were Dutch Citizens of the day. They
told me that "A Bridge Too Far" is historically innaccurate...the parade of
geese throught the window of General Browning at the end...the geese were
all eaten in about 1942 they were eating boiled tulip bulbs, because they
tasted, more or less, like onions.
Once you are in the Forces, you will make friendships, and achieve
understandings of life, that may amaze you in retrospect. That the Sgt or
WO who is so dispicably critical, so demeaning, really does care about you
and any number of other people as well...that the Officer, who seems not
to care a jot, when the chips seem down, is actually forcing himself to look
at the "big picture"...he‘d give anything for your fortune...that it really
does become "a band of brothers" but unless you give it out, you‘ll never
get it back at least entirely.
And the cost may well be that you will never understand the rest of Canada,
where they may concern themselves with something so tawdry as "Tax Cuts"..
And, if the "Ultimate Sacrifice" means our friend or friends survive, even
at the cost of ourselves, its no question...
Please go forward and enjoy your career..you sound to me like the kind of
Canadian I can respect and admire..
John
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: Rememberance
> I can‘t begin to tell everyone on this list how hearting warming,... and
> heart wrenching it is to seeread all of you discuss how remembrance day
is
> so important to you. I‘m only sixteen years old, and I get sick to my
stomach
> when I think about how much kids my age take for granted, and really,
don‘t
> understand.
> My grandparents lived in Holland during ‘Market Garden‘, and were so
very
> impressed with the Canadians that they came to make their life here,
directly
> following the war, as did so many other dutch families. I am so proud to
be
> joining the army that served so gallantly in those days when they were so
> desparately needed. And I can‘t, for the life of me begin to imagine what
it
> must have been like, eventhough I am somewhat versed in Canadian military
> history, however much less knowledgeable that most belonging to this
list.
> There are two things that bother me the most: 1 Veterans and the fallen
> don‘t receive the respect they earned, and 2 I wish I could be certain
that
> my generation would be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, should we
need
> to. I don‘t for a minute, however, think that I really understand what
making
> the ultimate sacrifice means... Although I think I have a better idea
than
> most teens.
> In closing, thankyou to those who‘ve served, and thankyou to those
who,
> if needed, would be on the first boat across the pond.
> -Matt
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
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--------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by "S. Brent Warne" <sbw@netidea.com> on Sun, 12 Nov 2000 11:13:36 -0800
Sgt Durrant
While I agree with your sentiments that Remembrance Day is sacred. I
seem to recall a few Remembrance Days spent working instead of partaking
of the comradeship usually associated with the day.
One in particular Remembrance Day was spent in a dirty hole of a place
in the middle of the Sinai Desert. We stopped work for a minute and
someone said it‘s too bad so and so didn‘t make it. We had just had 9
guys killed when the Syrians shot down a Buffalo a couple of months
earlier. That was it. No elaborate ceremony, just a simple act of
remembrance. To my mind, that‘s what it‘s all about. Fancy parades and
visits to the Legion are great, but a simple act of remembrance is more
important.
We will remember them, I think the statement goes.

-----Original Message-----
From:Wm. Durrant [SMTP:lgunnerl@home.com]
Sent:Saturday, November 11, 2000 5:56 PM
To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject:Rememberance Day
> > >
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Posted by Juno847627709@aol.com on Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:18:05 EST
Thanks, John. With advice from people like yourself, I have no doubt that
I‘ll be ok.
-Matt
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