Revitalization of Corrections Canada
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I was always under the impression that many of the concessions made to inmates (TV, internet, etc) were, in part, an attempt to create an environment more easily controlled and less violent. I'd be interested to see the figures on intra-prison crime, especially violent crime, in Canada's system vs. that of the US.
I wouldn't mind Bruce's input on the idea (IE better living conditions = more easily/less violently managed inmates). From what I understand (taken from a convict friend's point of view, not a guard's, mind you), the prisoners have a substantial amount of input on matters within the prison. Again, maybe he was way out to lunch in his interpretation, which is why I'd like to hear from Bruce.
I wouldn't mind Bruce's input on the idea (IE better living conditions = more easily/less violently managed inmates). From what I understand (taken from a convict friend's point of view, not a guard's, mind you), the prisoners have a substantial amount of input on matters within the prison. Again, maybe he was way out to lunch in his interpretation, which is why I'd like to hear from Bruce.
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xFusilier said:
What the hell? Living in Mod-tents and eating mass-produced tasteless food is considered "cruel and unusual punishment"? Dude. I'm SO suing the army....
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I don't have a whole lot of time tonight, but Ape is essentially correct. Since the days of floggin' and beancake are over, there needs to be someway to have control, and that would be the "extras" of which people speak.
Remember inmates "run" a jail, which is to say that without a mutual consent nothing can get done
[ cleaning, food preparation, etc]. We may have the "final" say, however the "final" option is always man, time and money consuming.....
And as for saying make them work, just what does one do when they say "hoop your forehead"?
A question for those whom have attended or worked in the DB,...what happens when a resident says "no"?
Remember inmates "run" a jail, which is to say that without a mutual consent nothing can get done
[ cleaning, food preparation, etc]. We may have the "final" say, however the "final" option is always man, time and money consuming.....
And as for saying make them work, just what does one do when they say "hoop your forehead"?
A question for those whom have attended or worked in the DB,...what happens when a resident says "no"?
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Bruce Monkhouse said:
I haven't heard the term "hoop" in that context in a looooong looooong time (since last speaking with the aforementioned convict). It must be a prison thing...
Would you agree that a more comfortable prison is a safer environment for corrections workers? What's your view on the no-smoking regulation? I remember being able to smoke in the outside visitors area (though it was a minimum security prison) - is that gone now too?
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I know this isn't a perfect analogy, but....who is generally better behaved: a child that is given every luxury, and has no responsibilities, or a child given the bare necessities, and the opportunity to earn rewards through hard work and responsible conduct?
Bruce, when they say "No", you should have a system in place to deal with it. Solitary confinement seems like an idea. Modifications to their diet would be another. And then there's always group punishment. One guy doesn't want to work? NOBODY gets to watch TV. See how soon he changes his mind.
And yes, I know that those things wouldn't be allowed under our current system. The system needs to change.
Bruce, when they say "No", you should have a system in place to deal with it. Solitary confinement seems like an idea. Modifications to their diet would be another. And then there's always group punishment. One guy doesn't want to work? NOBODY gets to watch TV. See how soon he changes his mind.
And yes, I know that those things wouldn't be allowed under our current system. The system needs to change.
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48th,
I really can't speak for the federal system [ nor would I want to] but all those things you speak about happen in the Provincial system. Thats why the average inmate would rather get 5 years than 2 years less a day....easier "time" and a get out sooner card...
Ape,
Yes these things make life MUCH easier for the staff....we don't call it TV, we call it "the babysitter"....
and as for the solitary confinement thing, most of these guys are anti-social to start with and so all that does is leave them alone with the person they love the most [ and most often ;D]. Remember the mandate of Corrections is just that, correction, .......however hand tied that unfortunately leaves us.
I really can't speak for the federal system [ nor would I want to] but all those things you speak about happen in the Provincial system. Thats why the average inmate would rather get 5 years than 2 years less a day....easier "time" and a get out sooner card...
Ape,
Yes these things make life MUCH easier for the staff....we don't call it TV, we call it "the babysitter"....
and as for the solitary confinement thing, most of these guys are anti-social to start with and so all that does is leave them alone with the person they love the most [ and most often ;D]. Remember the mandate of Corrections is just that, correction, .......however hand tied that unfortunately leaves us.
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Bruce Monkhouse said:
Is that "solitary confinement" as in "hey, guess what, you don't have to get out of bed today", or are we talking solitary confinement as in 3 weeks in a dark hole-in-the-ground of a cell, with only bread, water, and a couple vitamin tablets for a meal?
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The former....
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Again we go back to the fact that if it is unpleasant then they will not want to do it.
If they (the prisoners) view solitary as a sleep over then make it miserable for them. I am not talking about physical or mental torture but simply not a happy place to be.
Then it becomes a deterrent and not a "time out".
How about Humid... or dry...or dark...or light...or no furniture....or no contact
there are tons of things that can be done to make the most aesthetically pleasing environment not desirable. I am sure that those who have been to the DB can come up with a few.
Getting back on the DB principal, I believe that that environment is so uncomfortable for those who are sentenced to it that there is only a few miscreants that would value their own behavior over a re-sentence.
For those who I have talked to who have gone through it they wear it as a badge of pride but at the same time say "no F..in way am I ever going back there"
If it works, lets give it a try in a broader context. It can hardly be worse than what we have now.
GF
If they (the prisoners) view solitary as a sleep over then make it miserable for them. I am not talking about physical or mental torture but simply not a happy place to be.
Then it becomes a deterrent and not a "time out".
How about Humid... or dry...or dark...or light...or no furniture....or no contact
there are tons of things that can be done to make the most aesthetically pleasing environment not desirable. I am sure that those who have been to the DB can come up with a few.
Getting back on the DB principal, I believe that that environment is so uncomfortable for those who are sentenced to it that there is only a few miscreants that would value their own behavior over a re-sentence.
For those who I have talked to who have gone through it they wear it as a badge of pride but at the same time say "no F..in way am I ever going back there"
If it works, lets give it a try in a broader context. It can hardly be worse than what we have now.
GF
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Sorry guys, but the DB thing is apples to oranges......you cannot compare a SOLDIER who either just lost his way or his cool to a life-long trashbag who aspires to be nothing more than a larger trashbag.
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Bruce Monkhouse said:
Agreed, but the rest of his points are still valid. If you want to be able to control their behaviour in civvie jails, you have to have the ability to make their lives miserable. It's the carrot and stick approach. When they behave well, you give them TV, and an exercise room, a library, whatever. I'm not opposed to giving them a few perks, as long as they're reasonable. But when they misbehave, you can't just take away the carrot. You gotta bring in the stick! Otherwise they'll just continue telling you to "hoop your forehead"
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Trust me, that happens in the Ontario system.
I see no one has answered the question of what happens when a "resident" of DB says that "you can kiss my @#$, I'm just going to sit here for 20 days, do something about it".
I see no one has answered the question of what happens when a "resident" of DB says that "you can kiss my @#$, I'm just going to sit here for 20 days, do something about it".
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48th et al....
It is the " controlling of behaviour " which is at issue here.
Line Officers ( In the Ontario Provincial System) can do little to control inmate behaviour for a number of reasons including lack of adequate staffing levels, shortage of appropriate segregation areas within the institution and a seeming lack of will at the highest levels to enforce the Ministry of Correctional Services Act in regards to the discipline of inmates.......especially where it concerns violence against other inmates and / or Staff.
Society as presently constituted deems it "appropriate" for the inmate population to retain their "rights" to TV etc and so they do. The same society deems it appropriate for offenders to be housed 3 to a cell ...the third inmate on a mattress on the floor next to the toilet........
Cries of "Damn right to" and " Thats the stuff....stick it to the *&^%^&* " fail to acknowledge the difficulty a situation like the above poses on the unarmed and outnumbred officers. Good C.O.'s can persuade the dead to rise, and with good reason......most often talking is the best and only weapon we have.....
Especially now that any use of force ( our other persuasive tool ) is scrutinized minutely "to protect the rights of the inmate"....
Our inmates are not afraid to use violence........and they feel NO remorse about doing so......because it is the communication tool they understand...
We are required to intervene when they fight each other ....by that I mean break up fights that are increasingly 3 or more on one.....and we then become targets....
That is the job...and we accept it........what we have difficulty with is the " inmate-centric" view-point held by the goverment and the General Public...
But what the hell do I know.....I am just a knuckle dragging gahrd....
It is the " controlling of behaviour " which is at issue here.
Line Officers ( In the Ontario Provincial System) can do little to control inmate behaviour for a number of reasons including lack of adequate staffing levels, shortage of appropriate segregation areas within the institution and a seeming lack of will at the highest levels to enforce the Ministry of Correctional Services Act in regards to the discipline of inmates.......especially where it concerns violence against other inmates and / or Staff.
Society as presently constituted deems it "appropriate" for the inmate population to retain their "rights" to TV etc and so they do. The same society deems it appropriate for offenders to be housed 3 to a cell ...the third inmate on a mattress on the floor next to the toilet........
Cries of "Damn right to" and " Thats the stuff....stick it to the *&^%^&* " fail to acknowledge the difficulty a situation like the above poses on the unarmed and outnumbred officers. Good C.O.'s can persuade the dead to rise, and with good reason......most often talking is the best and only weapon we have.....
Especially now that any use of force ( our other persuasive tool ) is scrutinized minutely "to protect the rights of the inmate"....
Our inmates are not afraid to use violence........and they feel NO remorse about doing so......because it is the communication tool they understand...
We are required to intervene when they fight each other ....by that I mean break up fights that are increasingly 3 or more on one.....and we then become targets....
That is the job...and we accept it........what we have difficulty with is the " inmate-centric" view-point held by the goverment and the General Public...
But what the hell do I know.....I am just a knuckle dragging gahrd....
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