Spiritual Issues

[Ravanosh]

I have been considering a career in the military for quite a few years now, and I believe I possess the skills and mentality to perform well in a myriad of CF trades.

However, I have difficulty rectifying my deeply-rooted spiritual beliefs with my desire to serve my country and combat evil.

I have considered the path of military chaplain, but at the moment I am too young for the deaconate and I am doubtful that the designation of non-combatant will allow me to serve to the best of my ability.

That is not to say that I desire to end lives, but I recognize that there is such a thing as true evil in the world. Unfortunately most enemies we will face in the middle-east are confused by rhetoric and are not truly evil themselves. It is the "heads of the snake" who represent that fount of evil from which our enemies spring.

It is doubtful that I would ever get the opportunity to strike at such a head, and the thought of killing those who are fighting for a cause they have been convinced is just does not appeal to me. To defend my fellow soldiers and the innocent, I will fire with alacrity and precision, but not out of hand could I bring myself to kill any but those truly deserving of death.

I suppose this is a personal issue, although I was hoping someone with similar beliefs, or a member of the chaplaincy, would perhaps notice this post and be able to provide some measure of guidance.

My thanks to all who serve. Perhaps one day I will join you.

 

[Trinity]

PM inbound.

 

[Loachman]

A good padre is worth his/her weight in...

I'm not sure what, but he/she certainly is, so do not worry about not being able to serve to the best of your ability.

If that is to where you are guided, then that is where you should be.

The military functions on teamwork, and each plays his/her essential part.

Welcome to the Site. Read a bunch, and perhaps it will help you in your decision.

 

[gcclarke]

I guess all I have to say is this. Evil people may exist in the world, but it is very few and far between. The enemy is the enemy because they have been declared to be the enemy, not because they are evil. This goes for the Taliban currently, and it went for the average German soldier during WWII. Some of them may be misguided by their government / religious leaders, some of them may be doing what they do out of a sense of loyalty, etc, but very very few of them are doing what they do because they are inherently bad people.

And of course, things aren't always nearly as white and black as the two examples as I've listed. For example, the little dust-up that occurred in 1982 between the UK and Argentina. Who was the bad guy there? Neither.

So yeah, I'm unsure that you'll ever really find someone "truly deserving of death", and especially I rather doubt that your definitions of who is deserving will always be the same as that determined by your superior commanders.

So, should this be an accurate assessment, I would highly recommend that you avoid joining the Canadian Armed Forces in any capacity other than perhaps the health services branch or the chaplaincy.

 

[Loachman]

I would highly recommend that you avoid joining the Canadian Armed Forces in any capacity other than perhaps the health services branch or the chaplaincy.

I shall disagree with this, and quite thoroughly.

There is nothing in his post inconsistent with serving in any capacity.

Few of us have any desire to kill many of the people that we may have to kill, but we recognize the necessity when the time comes and most are able to do so.

I'd rather have somebody who is able to put some intelligent thought to it - at the appropriate time, like now - than someone who does it with insufficient thought and takes a little too much pleasure in it.

I only have a couple of assists, but that's enough to give me something to think about and quite often. I'd rather not have had to do that, but they made their choices, it felt good, and I have no regrets. It saved a ramp ceremony or two at the minimum.

 

[armychick2009]

We all have our strengths and skills which can be brought to the forces in one way or another, I believe.

I've spoke with chaplains in the army a few times about this and my suggestion is maybe see if you can talk with one. I had a chance to sit with several a few times in Borden as that is where the chaplaincy school is and two other times in cities my ex-husband was posted to and I was there for.  The one chaplain explained his enrollment story to me and it sounds incredibly familiar so know you're not alone in this as I believe he had the exact same issue with regards to his designation.  It did take him a while to get to the point where he could perform the duties he wanted to but he believed the timing worked out in the end because the years he had to wait, he had a chance to get experience through his life events that has served him well numerous times over, within the forces.

For myself, I also had a similar 'spiritual issue' which took about a year to fully work through. I"m comfortable now with the decisions I've made...

Take care!

 

[sky777]

I just want to add my 5 cents.
I am religion person too.I think  that being military is privilege that God and country can give you.
As being Christian I can see a lot of example from the Bible how God gave people opportunity to protect their land.
The first example of military service is found in the Old Testament (Genesis 14), when Abraham's nephew Lot was kidnapped by Chedorlaomer, king of Elam, and his allies. Abraham rallied to Lot's aid by gathering 318 trained men of his household and defeating the Elamites. Here we see armed forces engaged in a noble task—rescuing and protecting the innocent.
In the New Testament, Jesus marveled when a Roman centurion (an officer in charge of one hundred soldiers) approached Him. The centurion’s response to Jesus indicated his clear understanding of authority, as well as his faith in Jesus (Matthew 8:5-13). Jesus did not denounce his career. Many centurions mentioned in the New Testament are praised as Christians, God-fearers, and men of good character (Matthew 8:5; 27:54; Mark 15:39-45; Luke 7:2; 23:47; Acts 10:1; 21:32; 28:16).
The Bible also uses military terms to describe being strong in the Lord by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-20), including the tools of the soldier—helmet, shield, and sword.
The Christian men and women who serve their country with character, dignity, and honor can rest assured that the civic duty they perform is condoned and respected by our sovereign God. Those who honorably serve in the military deserve our respect and gratitude.

 

[mariomike]

However, I have difficulty rectifying my deeply-rooted spiritual beliefs with my desire to serve my country and combat evil.

You may find the story of this man inspirational:
http://www.sgtyorkdiscovery.com/The_York_Story.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyJTfuau3hw&feature=related

 

[Ravanosh]

Thank you for that link Mariomike, the story of Sgt. York strengthens my belief that war (if fought for the right reasons) can serve as the ultimate test of moral character.

All of the responses have been helpful, and I have even been fortunate enough to receive a PM from a Chaplain. This forum is an exceptional resource, a testament to the best Canada has to offer.

I admit that I find it discouraging (and to some extent, hypocritical) that we must maintain a separation of church and state. Our anthem itself would be considered politically incorrect if we adhered to that separation, and many of the most important matters of man include a reference to a higher power (i.e. Under God).

My point is that selective separation is nonsensical, and only serves to highlight the fact that we cannot remove the spiritual from the temporal without creating a blatant void.

In response to gcclarke, I respect your opinion and share your understanding that very few soldiers are inherently evil, no matter who they are fighting for. However, I do not believe that there is a lack of evil in this world, nor people who embody it.

Thank you all for your assistance. It is reassuring to know that my concerns are shared by many.

 

[vonGarvin]

I admit that I find it discouraging (and to some extent, hypocritical) that we must maintain a separation of church and state.

Some seem to forget that Church and State were separated in order to protect The Church* from the state's influences, not the other way around.  Having a strong base of faith within any country is good, IMHO, to provide a moral voice or reminder from time to time to the State.  Now, I'm not saying that we must be Christian or Islamic or Bhuddist as a state, but having a wide variety of faiths strengthens, not weakens, the State.  Again, this is just my opinion on things.


It's sort of like having the NDP in Parliament.  Never to be trusted to run the show, but they serve a purpose to "remind" the big guys of important and perhaps otherwise forgotten issues from time to time.



*This applies to all faiths, not any single "church" or religion as such.

 

[sky777]

Any case faith is private thing.
If you think, according your religion view, service for CF is OK then feel free to join.But you must be ready to protect yourself,your colleagues,  so-workers ,your family. It means you can kill enemies.
If it is against what you believe then joining to CF is not good idea.
I am Christian, but I think my faith it is my private thing.I try to follow what I believe. Service with Canadian Forces can be blessing from God and privilege from Canadian Government.

NIV
Romans 14:22
So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.

NLT
Romans 14:22
You may believe there’s nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who don’t feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right.

 

[Ravanosh]

You raise an interesting point Technoviking, the separation of Church and State was originally intended to protect religion and spirituality from the influence of the State. Nowadays it seems as though numberless temporal agencies continue to take advantage of this, somehow operating outside or removed of the moral grounding that "Church" repersents.

In the past, leaders had to circumvent the religious priniciples of the day in order to operate in such a way. Now, to a large extent, that work is done for them.

You also raise a good point about the variety of faiths, and the need to create an inclusive, rather than exclusive religious environment. I am hopeful that the military will take take that bold first step, and seek to have Chaplains ordained by the ministries of all three Abrahamic religions. Not only does it make sense as a rational(and logistical) step forward, but it also closes gaps that should not exist between beliefs that share a common ancestor.

While I find that movements, such as Bahá'í, have made great inroads in the endeavour to merge various religions into a cohesive spiritual whole, they have in most cases taken an all-encompassing approach that is technically unfeasable.

However, combining the teachings (if not the traditions) of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam seems a perfectly reasonable progression, and I cannot conceive of a better place to first employ such a methodology than in the military Chaplaincy.

And to reply to you sky, I understand what is required of a soldier, but I have difficulty ignoring my principles upon request or demand. Having non-lethal options allays this concern, so perhaps I may be better suited to service in the police force.

I would be very interested in helping to develop new military technologies for non-lethal target neutralization, or similar advances. My experience in biochemistry and pharmacology may be applicable to such a field. Can anyone advise on a career in military science?

 

[George Wallace]

........ I am hopeful that the military will take take that bold first step, and seek to have Chaplains ordained by the ministries of all three Abrahamic religions. Not only does it make sense as a rational(and logistical) step forward, but it also closes gaps that should not exist between beliefs that share a common ancestor.

Too late.  It has already been done.

While I find that movements, such as Bahá'í, have made great inroads in the endeavour to merge various religions into a cohesive spiritual whole, they have in most cases taken an all-encompassing approach that is technically unfeasable.

However, combining the teachings (if not the traditions) of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam seems a perfectly reasonable progression, and I cannot conceive of a better place to first employ such a methodology than in the military Chaplaincy.

And to reply to you sky, I understand what is required of a soldier, but I have difficulty ignoring my principles upon request or demand. Having non-lethal options allays this concern, so perhaps I may be better suited to service in the police force.

I would be very interested in helping to develop new military technologies for non-lethal target neutralization, or similar advances. My experience in biochemistry and pharmacology may be applicable to such a field. Can anyone advise on a career in military science?

Hate to be a little off, but this sounds like you may be more of someone who utilizes altered states of mind to experience the metaphysical directly, than a person prepared to face reality and join the CF.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Too late.  It has already been done.

George, I would interpret that comment to mean having individual Chaplains who are recognized (i.e., ordained, or authorized to formally execute the roles and tasks appropriate to each religion) by all three major religions, not simply having Chaplains from each.

Hate to be a little off, but this sounds like you may be more of someone who utilizes altered states of mind to experience the metaphysical directly, than a person prepared to face reality and join the CF.

Try to be more open minded George, just because someone mentions pharmacology doesn't require leaping to assumptions that they are likely a drug user.

 

[aesop081]

Can anyone advise on a career in military science?

See these guys......

http://www.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/

 

[George Wallace]

George, I would interpret that comment to mean having individual Chaplains who are recognized (i.e., ordained, or authorized to formally execute the roles and tasks appropriate to each religion) by all three major religions, not simply having Chaplains from each.

We already do.  Not in great numbers, and for this very reason the Chaplaincy Corps changed their Cap Badge to be more inclusive.  Although they do not have "Churches/Synagogues/Mosques/Temples" of their own on Bases, they have either been accommodated by the two Churches on the Base or the Base with a place to conduct worship.

 

[vonGarvin]

George, I would interpret that comment to mean having individual Chaplains who are recognized (i.e., ordained, or authorized to formally execute the roles and tasks appropriate to each religion) by all three major religions, not simply having Chaplains from each.

I'm not sure if I know what you mean.  Do you mean that the CF Chaplains (Imams, Rabbis, Priests, Ministers, etc) that are recognised by their faiths as being military chaplains?  Or having a chaplain who is recognised from Moslems, Jews and Christians who can conduct the services of all three?  EG: "Father David/Rabbi David/Imam Daoud"? 

I can't speak for Islam or Judaism, but for Catholics, they are pretty strict on who can and cannot perform sacraments.  But for leading prayers according to Christian Faith can pretty well be anyone.  EG: pretty well anyone can walk in and conduct a "liturgy of the word", but beyond that, the rest of mass has to be done by a priest.  Same with anointing of the sick (aka "last rites"), etc.

 

[Antoine]

Quote from: Ravanosh on Today at 15:33:54
    Can anyone advise on a career in military science?

Use the keyword "Bioscience Officer" in the search function of the present forum.

Also, go check out the following web page:

www.forces.ca/html/bioscienceofficer_reg_en.aspx

Bioscience Officer, OVERVIEW: Their primary duty is to mitigate health threats to CF members and improve their operational performance.......

edit to add:

You might find of interest the following:

http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/91633.0.html

 

[aesop081]

Use the keyword "Bioscience Officer" in the search function of the present forum.

The OP was interested in developing non-lethal weapons. I hardly think Bioscience officer is going to get him there. Working as a scientist for DRDC would be a much broader option.

 

[Pusser]

I admit that I find it discouraging (and to some extent, hypocritical) that we must maintain a separation of church and state. Our anthem itself would be considered politically incorrect if we adhered to that separation, and many of the most important matters of man include a reference to a higher power (i.e. Under God).

We need to be careful in understanding this.  Although the separation of church and state is often discussed in the Canadian context, people often confuse it with the American example.  Although the American founding fathers (which we also often forget are actually traitors in the Canadian context) very much promoted the separation of church and state, the same cannot be said of the framers and founders of Canada.  Religion (in fact, Christian religion) has always been a part of the official structure.  Keep in mind that the Canadian Constitution specifically recognizes the supremacy of God.  We have separate school boards in Ontario and religious observances make up part of the official processes in Parliament and the provincial legislatures.  When was the last time we saw anyone taking anyone to court for some overt religious symbol in Canada?  Do we separate church and state in Canada?  To certain extent, yes, but not anywhere close to the extent that our neighbours to the south do.