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The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

KevinB

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I’d offer that the NICS down here offers pretty much was is needed in terms of a check.
4473 forms need to be filled out with new sales, and the dealer retains the record of that.
NICS is only aware you where checked - not what you may have bought (for non NFA weapons).
4473’s stay with the dealers unless the business surrenders it’s FFL, then the ATF gets it.

Now in Virginia the VA State Police are also notified of what you are buying - many states have those sort of reporting/record keeping criteria.
 

Halifax Tar

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I actually think our licensing should be more difficult. And should incorporate practical competence for range safety and marksmanship.

I also don't mind a registration as long as it's free and won't be used as a confiscation tool.

Also punishments for dangerous misuse of a firearm should come with automatic life time bans of legal ownership.

All me and elitist if you want but I remember my PAL and RPAL courses... There were definitely some folks who I wouldn't want to share space with if there were firearms about.
 

KevinB

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I actually think our licensing should be more difficult. And should incorporate practical competence for range safety and marksmanship.
I would not use the term difficult -- I would use the term safe, and practical...
I also don't mind a registration as long as it's free and won't be used as a confiscation tool.
I don't mind registration in theory - however, generally it has been used poorly in most countries in the past.
Also punishments for dangerous misuse of a firearm should come with automatic life time bans of legal ownership.
I think the punishment needs to fit the crime, the fact remains that Canada's Legal gun owners aren't the issue -- all the gun laws in Canada do is piss off law abiding owners. Canada already lets some folks who shouldn't have guns, have guns for sustenance reasons, despite they are habitual offenders, and then the government uses those stats again the law abiding crowd.

All me and elitist if you want but I remember my PAL and RPAL courses... There were definitely some folks who I wouldn't want to share space with if there were firearms about.
I can honestly say that about a majority of LE and Mil folks - who theoretically have passed an "intensive" firearms training course(s).
 

Halifax Tar

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I would not use the term difficult -- I would use the term safe, and practical...

I don't mind registration in theory - however, generally it has been used poorly in most countries in the past.

I think the punishment needs to fit the crime, the fact remains that Canada's Legal gun owners aren't the issue -- all the gun laws in Canada do is piss off law abiding owners. Canada already lets some folks who shouldn't have guns, have guns for sustenance reasons, despite they are habitual offenders, and then the government uses those stats again the law abiding crowd.


I can honestly say that about a majority of LE and Mil folks - who theoretically have passed an "intensive" firearms training course(s).

I like difficult. I want only proven competent individuals with firearms. I want a high failure rate on the course. Maybe even recerts at renewal time.

Agreed.

Thinks like dangerous use of firearm or poaching need to be life time bans. Our laws are FUBAR I know. But we don't obey them we have no chance in hell in improving them. And if that means sacrificing the boneheads who play fast and loose with them now then so be it.

Absolutely, it's why I have professed many times on here that our small arms training is a farce and should be strengthened so that failure to be successful at it should hold the same weight as failure to pass a fitness test.
 

suffolkowner

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Eventually you are going to see all semi-autos banned and handguns as well that is just the way the wind is blowing. In theory registrations should be no big deal but in reality it will just be a tool used to confiscate.
 

Brad Sallows

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"If".

Once information exists, there are no indefinitely enforceable limits governing its use. There isn't even any foolproof way to prevent activists with access to data from sharing it. The only way to forestall abuse of information is to not have it in the first place.
 

Weinie

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I like difficult. I want only proven competent individuals with firearms. I want a high failure rate on the course. Maybe even recerts at renewal time.

Agreed.

Thinks like dangerous use of firearm or poaching need to be life time bans. Our laws are FUBAR I know. But we don't obey them we have no chance in hell in improving them. And if that means sacrificing the boneheads who play fast and loose with them now then so be it.

Absolutely, it's why I have professed many times on here that our small arms training is a farce and should be strengthened so that failure to be successful at it should hold the same weight as failure to pass a fitness test.
Ummm.

Did you grow up in rural Canada?

The vast(read VAST) majority of Canadians who are gun owners never commit a firearms related offense. If a dickhead does something stupid, and then gets indicted, justice has been served. For perspective, how many people have been killed in vehicular accidents in the last twenty years, compared to firearms incidents? We do condemn the vehicle owner that was impaired/sped etc. But we do not seek to circumscribe vehicle ownership. So, as you prescribed, I want only proven competent individuals with vehicles. I have four kids. They are currently much more likely to get killed by a vehicle than getting shot.
 
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Halifax Tar

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Ummm.

Did you grow up in rural Canada?

The vast(read VAST) majority of Canadians who are gun owners never commit a firearms related offense. If a dickhead does something stupid, and then gets indicted, justice has been served. For perspective, how many people have been killed in vehicular accidents in the last twenty years, compared to firearms incidents? We do condemn the vehicle owner that was impaired/sped etc. But we do not seek to circumscribe vehicle ownership. So, as you prescribed, I want only proven competent individuals with vehicles. I have four kids. They are currently much more likely to get killed by a vehicle than getting shot.

I did. My native soil lays between Verona and Tamworth Ontario. My grandfather drove cattle from there to Kingston and Ottawa for market. I grew up on raising draft horses (Belgian Percherons) until I went rebel and joined the Navy.

I love my firearms and the activities around them and I don't want that privilege to get spoiled by yokles who want to fire .22s at road signs or worse. That's why I want better training and tighter control around who legally get access to them.
 

IKnowNothing

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Ummm.

Did you grow up in rural Canada?

The vast(read VAST) majority of Canadians who are gun owners never commit a firearms related offense. If a dickhead does something stupid, and then gets indicted, justice has been served. For perspective, how many people have been killed in vehicular accidents in the last twenty years, compared to firearms incidents? We do condemn the vehicle owner that was impaired/sped etc. But we do not seek to circumscribe vehicle ownership. So, as you prescribed, I want only proven competent individuals with vehicles. I have four kids. They are currently much more likely to get killed by a vehicle than getting shot.
Re- statistical risk- that's a function of volume, frequency, and proximity of use, not of risk inherent to operation.
Re- "not seeking to circumscribe vehicle ownership" lol bullshit. I can only speak to Ontario, but the process and threshold for driver licensing puts the firearms process to shame. I can only imagine the bloodbath on our roads if we were throwing drivers out there with a few hours of dry classroom learning and the equivalent of demonstrating the ability to do a circle check, pump gas, and turn on the ignition.

Let's flip the script. PAL requires a written test, set length apprenticeship period, practical test involving live fire and supervised field use in real life scenarios, set length limited period, more stringent practical test involving live fire and supervised field use in real life scenarios. Too onerous?
 

Weinie

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Re- statistical risk- that's a function of volume, frequency, and proximity of use, not of risk inherent to operation.
Re- "not seeking to circumscribe vehicle ownership" lol bullshit. I can only speak to Ontario, but the process and threshold for driver licensing puts the firearms process to shame. I can only imagine the bloodbath on our roads if we were throwing drivers out there with a few hours of dry classroom learning and the equivalent of demonstrating the ability to do a circle check, pump gas, and turn on the ignition.

Let's flip the script. PAL requires a written test, set length apprenticeship period, practical test involving live fire and supervised field use in real life scenarios, set length limited period, more stringent practical test involving live fire and supervised field use in real life scenarios. Too onerous?
Ok, lets flip the script. I grew up in the 60's was taught gun handling by my relatives, and then joined the CAF. Some relevant stats are below.



Let's flip the script. PAL requires a written test, set length apprenticeship period, practical test involving live fire and supervised field use in real life scenarios, set length limited period, more stringent practical test involving live fire and supervised field use in real life scenarios. Too onerous?
Ummm see the second link for a G1 license. Relatisvm
 
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Haggis

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I like difficult. I want only proven competent individuals with firearms. I want a high failure rate on the course. Maybe even recerts at renewal time.

Agreed.

Thinks like dangerous use of firearm or poaching need to be life time bans. Our laws are FUBAR I know. But we don't obey them we have no chance in hell in improving them. And if that means sacrificing the boneheads who play fast and loose with them now then so be it.

Absolutely, it's why I have professed many times on here that our small arms training is a farce and should be strengthened so that failure to be successful at it should hold the same weight as failure to pass a fitness test.
How would this approach to lawful gun ownership impact on those who criminally misuse guns?
 

mariomike

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I can only imagine the bloodbath on our roads if we were throwing drivers out there with a few hours of dry classroom learning and the equivalent of demonstrating the ability to do a circle check, pump gas, and turn on the ignition.

Not sure if drivers are any better trained now or then. But, they have more protection from each other than back in the day.

Air bags, laminated and tempered glass, crumple zones, side impact protection beams, collapsible steering columns and padded dashboards, seat belts etc. save lives. Car fires are also much less common, thanks to improved fuel system integrity and fire retardant materials.

In Toronto, most traffic fatalities are pedestrians.
 

Fishbone Jones

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That's precisely the problem. Not only do they expect regular joe gun owner to verify your pal is valid they also expect them to check your drivers license to verify you are who you say you are.

If someone presents fake credentials how is regular joe gun owner to tell? Then when a crime is committed with that gun joe will be charged for improperly selling a firearm and his life ruined because he didn't notice the fake credentials.

That'll only work for firearms purchased on or after 18 May 22. The RCMP will only be able to check on guns transferred after that date. Before this date, millions of guns have changed hands, some multiple times. Even if they had original store records, they can't charge the original owner. Too many legal transfers between different owners have made that near impossible. I have zero records for the dozens of NR firearms I have bought, sold and traded since the end of the long gun registry.

There should be no invalid, unexpired PALs out there. If a person gets banned by the court, the court should collect it. Other than expired ones, there should be no invalid PALs out there or some government official isn't doing their job.
 

Fishbone Jones

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I like difficult. I want only proven competent individuals with firearms. I want a high failure rate on the course. Maybe even recerts at renewal time.

Agreed.

Thinks like dangerous use of firearm or poaching need to be life time bans. Our laws are FUBAR I know. But we don't obey them we have no chance in hell in improving them. And if that means sacrificing the boneheads who play fast and loose with them now then so be it.

Absolutely, it's why I have professed many times on here that our small arms training is a farce and should be strengthened so that failure to be successful at it should hold the same weight as failure to pass a fitness test.
I can think of no better way to kill a sport. More cost, time and bureaucracy. Unrealistic expectations for training and qualification. Let's face it, there's people out there that will spend unlimited dollars and training and still won't be capable of passing a police pistol qual, but they shouldn't have to. If they can keep it on a fig.11, that is good enough for me. They'll get better. What quals would be placed on rifles and shotguns? Do we make them do rundown starting at 400 meters? And shotgun, two perfect rounds of skeet and trap. Lastly, how are you going to get them shooting and qualifying as part of the course, when you have to succesfully pass the course before you can handle a firearm? We've spent many, many years trying to kill off the Fudd culture here, let's not try start it up again. When my grandson is old enough, I'll teach him to shoot and if he wants to continue, he can take his PAL course.
 

Halifax Tar

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I can think of no better way to kill a sport. More cost, time and bureaucracy. Unrealistic expectations for training and qualification. Let's face it, there's people out there that will spend unlimited dollars and training and still won't be capable of passing a police pistol qual, but they shouldn't have to. If they can keep it on a fig.11, that is good enough for me. They'll get better. What quals would be placed on rifles and shotguns? Do we make them do rundown starting at 400 meters? And shotgun, two perfect rounds of skeet and trap. Lastly, how are you going to get them shooting and qualifying as part of the course, when you have to succesfully pass the course before you can handle a firearm? We've spent many, many years trying to kill off the Fudd culture here, let's not try start it up again. When my grandson is old enough, I'll teach him to shoot and if he wants to continue, he can take his PAL course.

This has nothing to do with fudd culture.

Simple static 100m range for rifles with a 5 round, 6in group to pass. I would only allow open sights with optics for the elderly or those with medical need of them. Same for pistol make it 25 to 50m. Shotgun, trap is good idea. Or maybe 20 to 50m range.

Raise the cost for the course cover range rentals and ammo and extra compensation for the instructors.

I have 2 rental properties for neighbors. Know when the landlord's started getting good renters ? When they attached standards to the people they rented too and added raised then rent to the properties. Now they have had better success and their property isn't dump. Same logic applies here IMHO.

Nothing wrong with teaching your kids to shoot. Ive been teaching my daughter.
 

Haggis

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This has nothing to do with fudd culture.
"Fudds" are not the only lawful gun owners.
Same for pistol make it 25 to 50m.
You're advocating for a standard that exceeds that of every LEA in Canada and is very rarely incorporated in sport shooting. Very few agencies still shoot beyond 15 metres with a pistol.
Raise the cost for the course cover range rentals and ammo and extra compensation for the instructors.
Sport shooting now becomes a pursuit for the well off? Range memberships are already climbing yearly.
 
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