Training Review Board Recommendations

[Good2Golf]

Does the MEL arising from your TCAT still allow you to continue training, and/or says you are still FIT for TRADE ###?  If not, then what is happening is exactly what should be happening.

Are you looking for us to say that there should not have been a TRB? 

We don't know what the TCAT-related MEL is, nor do we know your Trade, so not a single one of us can say that what is occurring to you should, or should not be happening.

At this point, I am not really sure what any of us can tell you to handle this situation.  None of us needs to know the specifics of your medical condition and your TCAT, that's a personnel thing.  That said, I think this thread may pretty much have run its course, until you come back and tell us what the results of the TRB are.

Regards,
G2G

 

[PuckChaser]

G2G got a lot of these points already, must be a faster typer....  ;D

Only the AR can decide whether you should (or can) continue in your trade. They will look at your doctor's notes and see if you'll meet the minimum standard for the trade. The TRB can only recommend that you not be recoursed, but thats up to the AR to decide that. TRB can stop this course, but only an AR can stop you completely.

We don't have your Div Notes, your medical file or know you personally to pass judgement on you or say without a doubt what will happen. Rest assured, as it has been said before, they will not TRB you with the reliable/accountability incidents without documentation and lots of it. Yes you have a medical condition. Without the other stuff, they can convene a TRB and remove you from course simply because you no longer meet the medical category required to complete the course. Because its a career course, it triggers the AR at the career manager level. Ignore all the people trying to tell you that you're going to get released and focus on being a model sailor and recovering from your aliment wherever they put you when you're released from course. If you shine, the easier it is to recommend COT to another trade, or recourse and all of this stuff will be behind you. No one is out to get you because of your medical condition, however both the condition or your performance can have you removed from course, as you're seeing now. You're not going to get the answer you seem to want which is "Your staff is wrong, you should stay on course, they're trying to screw you over", because its just not true.

 

[curiouschap]

Thank you that eases me a lot now. I have never denied that the TRB should not have happened. My MEL makes me unfit the trade for 6 months and hence the TRB has did the right thing to recommend cease training. I have no complaint against it. I was given disclosure to my Div notes and my supervisor said that the Div notes are used to prepare a summary for the TRB. I also made a write up answering major concerns and how I am working to get over them. Then the board asked me questions regarding 5 incidents that I was late, I had to see the BOR for some admin issue and eventually see the Warrant etc...and based on these incidents the chairman told me I dont show reliability etc.. traits and hence I should cease training in current trade. He also mentioned that since I am not trade qualifed I will most likely released. all the confusion is based on the fact that I have admin and discipline issues but I was never give I/C, RW etc.. on these. Thats why my fear is that if a release is initiated that will be unfair. Should I see someone to help me guide me how to approach things as and when they unfold.Thats all I am seeking. The medical is something I am not expert on so cannot comment. But yes when I get a chance to view the letter of recommendation to OIC I will give you excerpts of the letter here for further guidance.

 

[392]

....all the confusion is based on the fact that I have admin and discipline issues but I was never give I/C, RW etc.. on these.

I keep seeing this in this thread, and I will suggest this to you based on my answers from yesterday - check your school's standing orders WRT student counselling. I am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that the reason you have not been charged or issued IC / RW / C&P for the incidents you have sort of described here is because your training establishment has clear guidelines on when actual remedial measures are to be employed vice the "extras" you received.

I also wouldn't jump the gun too much on saying they never tried to employ these, as contrary to what you might think, your course staff (and even your immediate supervisor) cannot just issue IC / RW / C&P or charge you just because they feel like it - all of the supporting documentation has to be prepared and sent higher for approval / investigation / etc. If there wasn't enough evidence to support a charge or remedial measures, your supervisor might have been given the no-go. This happens all the time without the member involved or even knowing about it right up to the point where the charge / remedial measure is laid. Another thing to think about is maybe your supervisor who entered these instances into your Div notes might have thought the infractions weren't serious enough to warrant a charge or remedial measures - i.e. tried to go easy on you.

On another note, the TRB chair may make the recommendation for you to be released, however as previously pointed out the results of the AR will determine what the next step for the CM is. If you have done well on previous courses and the MEL is really what is holding you up, there is a good possibility they will recommend reassignment vice release. While it sucks to be treated like a mushroom, sometimes even at the higher levels, it is what it is, and we deal with it. In the meantime, as already mentioned, show your CoC what you're truly made of, and be the best you can be  :2c:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'll add a few points. 

A) the TRB/PRB is, generally, limited in the choice of recommendations.  While not knowing the RCN wording or orders, they are usually (1) continue with remedial training (2) be re-coursed or (3) cease training.  Obviously, it is #3 that is the one of greatest concern and the TRB recommendation you are facing.

B) if the School Commandant agrees with the TRB recommendation to cease train, the training establishment will CT you and (should) generate a Course Report (IAW CMP Instruction 01/06).  Important to note, from the CMP Instr, Para 27 "Block 18, Comments by the Reviewing Officer.  If required, the reviewing officers comments shall be in consonance with the course data in Blocks 8 to 16 and shall not include any recommended career action.  This block must be completed before the member signs." (U/L portions as per the actual Order)

C) what will likely happen next is your file will be referred to the Base/Wing/Formation Personnel Selection Office and a PSO will be assigned your file.  The PSO will review your complete file, you will be meeting with the PSO to discuss, answer and ask questions.  In short, IAW current CF policies, requirements, based on the content of your file to date, any and all available information, you will be assessed for suitability for further service in your current trade or for a MOC Reassignment to another trade.  The PSO shop recommendation will go to the career authority in Ottawa (D Mil C) along with the recommendations of your Commanding Officer.  It is also likely that the PSO office will communicate with your unit during all this.  It is possible for an Admin Review to be requested, however, but being that you are BTL and not trade qualified, I'd guess that less likely since CANFORGEN 257/10 was released.

Try to focus on the 'here and now', not a possible Admin Review that hasn't even been convened yet.  There are a dozen or so orders that relate or apply to this that I can think of off the top of my head, and knowing all of them at this time won't likely help you. 

- You need to fight the "conspiracy theory" ideas in your head that are or will be there, you need to remain disciplined and composed and to show anyone/everyone why and/or how you can be a productive member of the CF.  This will or may help you show up to work with a positive attitude/disposition every day.

- Do the little things that are easy but count;  be early for all timings, be well turned-out (hair cuit, boots done, uniform not just to standard, but above standard, etc.  You've got yourself into this situation, you need to be the one to start the process to get yourself out.

Based on what you've said, I would suspect you can expect a decision to CT you and then a referral to the BPSO office for disposition.  If your School Commandant goes against the TRB recommendation of CT, you have a golden horseshoe up your arse and have been given a 2nd chance; use it well. 

But, if I were you, I'd start preparing myself to show the PSO why you should be retained by the CF, and why you should be given another chance at your MOC training (if you want another chance in that trade) or why you should be given a Reassignment to another MOC in the CF.  Bear in mind, if you do get a Reassignment, you'll be only be able to select the trades that are open on the BTL Monthly Reassignment List of the month you are Reassigned.  Its not the same as a VOT or the Recruiting Center, so don't expect much of a selection.

:2c:

*editted for PEI Education language abilities/shortcomings.  ;D

 

[curiouschap]

Thank you very much for this insight that I never had before.

I have started implementing changes to things I normally do to make sure that people around know my conviction for the CF.

I will check the school's SOP WRT discipline for sure but the incidents that started making such a huge deal since my TCAT and TRB did not make any difference whatsoever until then. Not withstanding the fact that I have TCAT and TRB, I am sure these would not have made any impact whatsoever in future. Thats what surprises me.

Anyways I will start making research with the PSO etc. Also I was told that I will be able to read the draft that will be sent to the Commandant of the school but I will confirm whether I can put my side of the story as well. If I am given that opportunity I will do it if not then maybe request after I am given the decision. I might put a memo. I really want to resolve these issues informally and I am confident that some positive changes will happen. Going formal route of redress is something I am not even considering right now.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Also I was told that I will be able to read the draft that will be sent to the Commandant of the school but I will confirm whether I can put my side of the story as well. If I am given that opportunity I will do it if not then maybe request after I am given the decision. I might put a memo. I really want to resolve these issues informally and I am confident that some positive changes will happen. Going formal route of redress is something I am not even considering right now.

You should be given the chance to provide representation after the TRB recommendation is signed that should go to the Cmdt for consideration.  That is part of procedural fairness (disclosure and the right to provide representation) and due process, both of which are covered in the Militarty Administrative Law Manual published by JAG.

If you are going to provide a reply to the TRB report, it is done before the Commandant makes his/her decision not after.  I'd suggest that one of the things you should do is obtain and review the RCN or School Order on the conduct of a TRB.  That should detail the whole process.

 

[curiouschap]

I checked the SOP on TRB from the school and no where does it mention that I should be shown a draft and given an opportunity to submit my presentation.

The way TRB went my gut feeling is cease training and recommend a release under 5(d) or 5(f). I know this will trigger an AR at 2 different levels. I am sure I will be able to redress the decision as well. Again I need some advice how to go about this redress process etc. I did read the details on grievance board website a number of questions come to my mind are that there is no indication whether or not a TRB should be held given the MEL, whether qualities that they kept mentioning does make that much of a difference now that it did not make when they happened. That means if there would have been no TRB these incidents would not have mattered to the least. The TRB had nothing to say about my training as they had the numbers on OJPR and they were at the standard where everyone else in the training are. Again my strong conviction is that the TRB be was held very hastily without considering some core issues a recommendation was made leaving me in a position of redress etc...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

What coast are you on.

TRB = TRAINING Review Board.  TRBs don't make recommendations for release.  Or they shouldn't.  Seriously.  It is to review your TRAINING. 

AR at 2 levels?  What are you talking about?

 

[curiouschap]

Yes TRB can recommend release under 5(d) or 5(f).

When a member is not fully trade qualifed, TRB can say cease training and recommend to MOSID reassignment or cease training and do not recommend reassignment. Thats the school's SOP

AR happens when the second option is selected where the career manager and D Mil will look at the options or initiate release

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Yes TRB can recommend release under 5(d) or 5(f).

I've reviewed the TRB doc's and policy, and haven't found where it states this.  As I said, I don't think this is the case because that is something the AR process may recommend.

When a member is not fully trade qualifed, TRB can say cease training and recommend to MOSID reassignment or cease training and do not recommend reassignment. Thats the school's SOP

AR happens when the second option is selected where the career manager and D Mil will look at the options or initiate release

1.  The TRB makes a recommendation to the Covening Authority, the Cmdt/CO.  The TRB does not make the decision.  Small point but fairly distinct difference. 

I did the 2nd quote part above, and following the orders down from the RCN to TE level, it seems to all flow and make sense.  The above quoted part you've likely seen in Annex E if I am not mistaken?

So:

- if decision is CT and recommend to reassign, member referred to FPSO shop.

- if decision is CT and not recommend reassignment, the file is then forwarded to the BTL Career Management authority and an AR requested. (CDA BTL Managment for NCMs).

What had caused me to scratch my head is the "TRB Chair can recommend release" and D Mil stuff.  I haven't found that anywhere in the applicable refs.  Be careful to state things as fact that you don't know are fact.  :2c:

Obviously, you are worried about the Admin Review and possible recommendation from the AR process of a release.  You should read the link below to start understanding the process.

DAOD 5019-2, Administrative Review


Once an AR case file has been reviewed and a decision reached, the AA may impose an administrative action, including:

■remedial measures under DAOD 5019-4;
■occupational transfer;
■transfer between sub-components;
■posting;
■an offer of terms of service in any case in which an offer has not been made by CF authorities;
■reversion in rank; or
■release or recommendation for release, as applicable.
If the decision is release, the CF member is to be released under the most appropriate item in the Table to QR&O article 15.01.

 

[curiouschap]

I said that coz the TRB chariman said that since I am untrained most likely I will be released as he says he has seen a lot of cases of release when untrained member is recommended cease training.

One thing that I could not find answer at all is when a doctor writes a TCAT with MEL, who determines how to employ the MELs, is it the unit or the doctor. One of the MEL I have is very open ended and doctor told me that employing these MELs is at the discretion of the unit. The first question is holding a TRB and asking me to make representation was against the MELs that the doctor gave me but my supervisor said I am fit to stand TRB. Now that TRB has happened, is it a good ides to put a grievance against the fact that the TRB was held against my MEL and it should not have been held at all or should I wait until final decision of TRB and then put a grievance.

 

[392]

I said that coz the TRB chariman said that since I am untrained most likely I will be released as he says he has seen a lot of cases of release when untrained member is recommended cease training.

One thing that I could not find answer at all is when a doctor writes a TCAT with MEL, who determines how to employ the MELs, is it the unit or the doctor. One of the MEL I have is very open ended and doctor told me that employing these MELs is at the discretion of the unit. The first question is holding a TRB and asking me to make representation was against the MELs that the doctor gave me but my supervisor said I am fit to stand TRB. Now that TRB has happened, is it a good ides to put a grievance against the fact that the TRB was held against my MEL and it should not have been held at all or should I wait until final decision of TRB and then put a grievance.

Has the TRB sat already? If so, the final decision was most likely made about 20 mins after you left the room.

MELs are not employed at the discretion of your unit. They are a set of limitations (Medical Employment Limitations) that your CoC must abide by, i.e. if it says no ruckmarching, then you cannot be ordered to do any forced marching with a rucksack. Limitations that are a little more fuzzy like PT at own pace or no stressful environment are a little trickier, depending on who is interpreting the MEL.

In any case, regardless of what your MEL says, if your TCAT brings your medical category down below the minimum required by your trade which is what is required for you to conduct the training you are on, a TRB will be convened. It's a simple as that. No redress, no "but how come you're singling me out", no anything. The whole idea of the TCAT is to allow YOU to get healed / better, and if your training interferes with that, training stops until you are better. End of story. While you might not see it like that at this point in your career, that is exactly what it is, and its purpose is to help you.

WRT making representations being against your MEL - your CoC should have already taken this restriction into account before convening the TRB including speaking with your base's medical facility to get all of the details and a recommendation from them about your recovery time. Now,  if you cannot stand the stress of having a respectful conversation with your TE's CoC in a formal setting, how are you able to function in a military lifestyle while undergoing initial trades training? Moreover, say you graduate from your QL3 and your ship deploys immediately - are you going to say "sorry, my MEL says no stress and someone else needs to take my spot who just came back from another deployment and now must burden my share of the load" or even worse, head to sea, come under enemy contact and have a meltdown because of all the stress; all because you didn't adhere to your MEL and get better when you had the chance? Part of the initial training you are receiving should be ensuring you can handle the stress of doing your job under stressful conditions (i.e. deployed or austere / away from the luxuries of garrison / home ports); so if your MEL says you cannot do this, why are you surprised the TE is looking at having you removed from training?

There has been a lot of good advice given to you in this thread already. The short of what has been said is:

1) You cannot grieve a TRB that has been convened for the appropriate reasons;

2) TRBs are convened on a regular basis for students not meeting the prerequisites for training (not meeting the minimum medical category falls under this);

3) Cmdts do not have the authority to release anyone - they only make the recommendation. The folks in D Mil C will consult with other career departments and make that decision;

4) The release process is very straightforward. It doesn't just happen overnight, and people don't get released for being untrained on a TCat. They can get released for being untrained on a TCat with other, documented discipline issues (i.e. have been put on C&P for discipline issues and failed to adhere to the conditions).

If at the end of this process, you do get released for something you see as unjust, THEN you can redress it. Like was pointed out a page or so ago, you cannot conduct a preemptive strike redress for something that hasn't happened yet. In the meantime, chin up, chest out, do the best you can and SHOW your CoC that you have what it takes to be a successful contributing member of the CF, even if you're temporarily out of the fight to get better. By continuing to try and find loopholes to support your theory that what is happening is unjust (and jumping to conclusions that unless some pertinent issues are being purposely omitted) is going to accomplish the exact opposite effect. It is also going to tire and stress you out....

:2c:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The first question is holding a TRB and asking me to make representation was against the MELs that the doctor gave me but my supervisor said I am fit to stand TRB.

The quote above is, IMO, an excellent example in this case to show it is extremely hard for anyone of us to give you a real, useful answer.  (1)  We don't know what the MELs are (and shouldn't on a public forum perhaps), (2) we don't know the contents of the convening order for the TRB (3) we don't know the circumstances, facts, relevant details from your CF time (any informal, formal admin/disciplinary actions), etc etc etc.  We don't know the details, have no documents to review against policy and therefore can't answer questions like these with certainty.

Now that TRB has happened, is it a good ides to put a grievance against the fact that the TRB was held against my MEL and it should not have been held at all or should I wait until final decision of TRB and then put a grievance.

Let's think about this for 1 second.  The decision is yet to be made, and if I understand correctly, you are in the OJTP part of training.  If you've read the MARCORD and School TRB SOP/Orders, you know what it says about NCMs in their OJT potion.  That could have some effect on the Cmdt/CO decision.  You may get a 'pause training' decision and a 2nd chance.

You don't know the outcome yet right?  From what you've said, and reviewing the MARCORD and School SOP/documents, the TRB was convened IAW regs.  (Remember what I said about about how on here, we can not possibly know the details and can not give rock-solid answers).  What would you be grieving? 

The question is what do you want?  Do you want to try to stay in the trade you are in?  Would you be happy if they reasigned you to a different trade?  Do you intend to grieve if the recommendation is to release without question? 

You can't get the help and the assistance you want/need from unknown people on the Internet.  Your case is too complicated and we can't know the details.  Because of that, I recommend the following to you:

1.  Because you are facing a possible recommendation for release as untrained BTL, I recommend you ask for a copy of the CANFORGEN I mentioned earlier ( CANFORGEN 257/10);

2.  Start educating yourself on the CF Grievance System, policies, regulations, etc:

(a) Queen's Regulations and Orders, Volume 1, Chapter 7 - Grievances

(b) Director General Canadian Forces Grievance Authority (DGCFGA) Internet site (the IntraNet site has a few differences so be sure to use that one if possible.  I'm assuming you have a Forces network/email account).  This site has a TON of info for you.  Start at the top and read it all, including the Whats New (links to the DAODs and the NOI stuff).

(c)  Canadian Forces Grievance Board (Case Summaries will show you some actual cases that have been reviewed and adjudicated).

3.  Because you are in a bad situation, and have the mental head-fuck that comes along with it, you need to find someone who can help you.  As a bare minimum, you can request an Assisting Member be appointed to assist you *with your grievance preparation and submission.  I strongly suggest you request one.

Just a point, you can have more than one contention in a single grievance.  Example (1) that a TRB should not have been convened because XY (2) the recommendation to CT and not recommend reassignment was unfair because YZX  and (3) *insert 3rd contention here*.

*editted to add

Summary

- TRBs make recommendations, Cmdt/COs of TEs make decisions.  Decision to CT and recommend reassignments are referred to FPSO; decision to CT and not recommend reassignment go to CDA BTL Management for disposition. 

- Grievance.  Read the stuff I've given you links to.  If/when you decide you might proceed with a redress, request an Assisting Member (Assisting Officer is not related to Grievances).

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Then they made reference to those 5 incidents which they say are questioning my traits that I am not reliable etc...but these incidents although noted in Div notes there were no official remedial measures like I/C, RW etc..the remedial measures were given like cleaning mess upto CO's inspection standards etc..Thats what is confusing me here.

I just wanted to add something here.

You've indicted you had some incidents, right?  They were noted in your Div Notes and you were given informal, lower levels of punishment and/or corrective measures such as cleaning up the Mess, etc.  You also note that there are no OFFICAL remedial measures, such as IC, RW or C & P.  Also it doesn't seem like your CofC elected to pursue charges against you and used extra duties instead.

I don't think you've been in the CF long enough to understand that this is (1) normal and (2) to your benefit.  Things like Remedial Measures, Charges under the Code of Service Discipline are supposed to be used as a last resort and/or for more serious incidents that warrant them.  A few points so you know:

1.  DAOD 5019-0 Conduct and Performance Deficiences.  Note it states "The chain of command or designated staff, as applicable, shall take appropriate action if a CF member demonstrates conduct or performance deficiencies. Depending on the circumstances, the appropriate action may involve disciplinary or administrative action, or both.

2.  Any Remedial Measures (DAOD 5019-4, Remedial Measures) would be on your Pers File for the duration of your CF career.  Also, using the 'I was late twice' incidents, if your CofC put you on an IC for being late the first time and , and then you were late the second time, what now?  Your CofC could then have put you on a RW.  You indicated there were a total of 5 incidents.  Are you glad now that your CofC elected to use less formal administrative methods to correct your defeciences??  For just 2 of them, you could have been on a RW.

3.  Remedial Measures are administrative actions.  As indicated above IAW DAOD 5019-0, you could also have been charged (disciplinary action) under the CSD for being late and the CSD covers that kind of Conduct/Performance Deficiency; QR & O, Vol 2, Ch 103, Article 103.23 - Absence Without Leave.  So, using formal methods, rather than you cleaning the mess or doing extras, etc you could have been charged at a Summary Proceeding/Trial for a service offence.  By your own admission the first time was genuine so we will assume you would have plead guilty.

Now, lets jump forward to your TCAT and the TRB with likely recommendation for CT and not recommended for reassignment.

- now you would have a Conduct Sheet for the AWOL charge, atleast one Remedial Measure on file, but possibly several.  File is forwarded to BTL Career Manager.
- the BTL Career Manager and/or AR analyst would see all of this paperwork; TRB recommendation, Conduct Sheet, ICs and RWs and not even MOC qual'd yet.  No hard to imagine what the Career Manager and/or AR anaylst's recommendation to the Approving Authority for your Admin Review would be, is it?

Earlier I said you have to get control of the conspiracy theory stuff in your head.  Hopefully this will help you see your CofC did you a favour by not going formal with their admin/discipline actions. 

But yes when I get a chance to view the letter of recommendation to OIC I will give you excerpts of the letter here for further guidance.

I am going to be the guy who advises you not to do that.  Seeing bits and pieces won't get any results here, and despite you not stating your name or trade, if I were you, I would proceed here assuming someone may or has already figured out who you are.  CYA (Cover Your A$$), right?

I seriously hope you take atleast as much time to consider the content of this post as it took me to write it for you, take an honest look at your situation and then think about how you should proceed.

 

[curiouschap]

I got to see the draft of the recommendations. It was in line to what I already knew. The recommendation is cease training but it says that I dont possess qualities to be in CF. The second part of recommendation is very vague. Based on things that they say about qualities nowhere has that been mentioned that I was even been given any remedial measures to correct deficiencies. Anyways I have my initial grievance in to grieve that the TRB should not have been held as it was in violation of my MEL of low stress. I got a lot of clarification from the doctor who had a talk with my supervisor. Lets see how this goes? Since I already have a grievance why are they still proceeding with the recommendations?

 

[PuckChaser]

Your grievance isn't granted, and the chain of command cannot assume it will be so they will continue with the recommendations. A grievance isn't a quick stop to a situation.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Did you request an Assisting Member?

 

[curiouschap]

Yes I have requested but most likely I will pay for a military lawyer. He is going to cost me $1500 but its worth it since anyone who I talk to says the same thing, that they did not follow procedures but still trying to build a case is something other than just asking for your release.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Just to clarify;  you've seen the draft recommendation of the TRB, but the actual decision hasn't been made by the Cmdt yet, and you've submitted a grievance, without the benefit of an Assisting Member, to your CO with the contention being that the TRB was contrary to a MEL of low stress?