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Ukraine - Superthread

I may have quoted the wrong post.

My thought is more towards the levels of public support for donation of war material and cash to the Ukraine war.

That's what I meant to quote... Not sure where went...

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What charity? We are assisting the Ukrainians in their defence of the collective west. They are paying in blood, the least we can due is stump up some cash and kit. Further, in all likelihood these generational problems would not be fixed even if we donated nothing to Ukraine.
 
Many/most *miss the fact that it’s an update to the ALREADY EXISTING Can-Ukr free trade agreement.
The reason the Liberals updated the ALREADY EXISTING free trade agreement, adding in the carbon is blatantly obvious.
The resulting hoopla from the Liberals and their media comrades is what was anticipated and received
 
What charity? We are assisting the Ukrainians in their defence of the collective west. They are paying in blood, the least we can due is stump up some cash and kit. Further, in all likelihood these generational problems would not be fixed even if we donated nothing to Ukraine.

Charity in this case being the money and military arms and equipment donated.

The idea that Russia is some threat to conquering the west is a bit hyperbolic at this point, IMHO. The have been soundly fought to a what looks like a stalemate with little show for it. Their kit has been shown to be poor and no where near what was reported. Exactly what existential threat do they pose to the west at this point, other than Nuclear ? Which I have to wonder they are even capable in that form either. And even if they are its mutual destruction anyhow.

I get wanting to help Ukraine against this, but things aren't going so well at home either, and eventually people will expect that their tax dollars be spent on themselves before others; and I think that's fair.
 
Charity in this case being the money and military arms and equipment donated.
Anything given to those fighting Russia isn’t charity. It is a donation to one’s future

The idea that Russia is some threat to conquering the west is a bit hyperbolic at this point, IMHO. The have been soundly fought to a what looks like a stalemate with little show for it.

Unfortunately it isn’t a stalemate at this point. The slowdown of western aid and the influx of NK munitions has allowed Russia to take the initiative and return to the advance.

Their kit has been shown to be poor and no where near what was reported. Exactly what existential threat do they pose to the west at this point, other than Nuclear ? Which I have to wonder they are even capable in that form either. And even if they are its mutual destruction anyhow.
They still have large numbers, and the willingness to use their troops like cannon fodder. Which when combined with the Western drop off of aid has made Russia even more dangerous.

I get wanting to help Ukraine against this, but things aren't going so well at home either, and eventually people will expect that their tax dollars be spent on themselves before others; and I think that's fair.
Frankly Canada would be better off donating its entire LAV and Leo fleets to Ukraine. It doesn’t do anything currently….
 
... I get wanting to help Ukraine against this, but things aren't going so well at home either, and eventually people will expect that their tax dollars be spent on themselves before others; and I think that's fair.
True as far as that goes, but as others smarter than me (thanks @Kirkhill) have pointed out upthread, even as (self-reporting) Team Blue members are more likely to say we're doing too much, recent polling shows both 1) more Canadians than not are good with continued or increased support, and 2) that overall support seems to be narrowing over time ...
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... eventually people will expect that their tax dollars be spent on themselves before others; and I think that's fair.
That could explain the movement in opinion, as well as the growing "I don't know" cohort, too.
... The have been soundly fought to a what looks like a stalemate with little show for it ...
On the "little to show for it," in terms of returning gloriously victorious Russian heroes? Agreed. In terms of bits of Ukraine they didn't have before the latest invasion? "Little" is in the eye of the beholder - the red non-striped bits are what Russia's holding for the moment since the 24 Feb 2022 push into UKR (source) ....
View attachment DraftUkraineCOT February 9, 2024.png
 
True as far as that goes, but as others smarter than me (thanks @Kirkhill) have pointed out upthread, even as (self-reporting) Team Blue members are more likely to say we're doing too much, recent polling shows both 1) more Canadians than not are good with continued or increased support, and 2) that overall support seems to be narrowing over time ...
View attachment 83027

That could explain the movement in opinion, as well as the growing "I don't know" cohort, too.

On the "little to show for it," in terms of returning gloriously victorious Russian heroes? Agreed. In terms of bits of Ukraine they didn't have before the latest invasion? "Little" is in the eye of the beholder - the red non-striped bits are what Russia's holding for the moment since the 24 Feb 2022 push into UKR (source) ....
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I think it's natural for people to be focused on their own plight and not be able maintain interest in a conflict that isn't affecting their day to day.

Especially when the perception is things are going well in one's own neck of the woods.

Anything given to those fighting Russia isn’t charity. It is a donation to one’s future



Unfortunately it isn’t a stalemate at this point. The slowdown of western aid and the influx of NK munitions has allowed Russia to take the initiative and return to the advance.


They still have large numbers, and the willingness to use their troops like cannon fodder. Which when combined with the Western drop off of aid has made Russia even more dangerous.


Frankly Canada would be better off donating its entire LAV and Leo fleets to Ukraine. It doesn’t do anything currently….

Sure. All I was saying was why I thought public support was losing ground.
 
I think it's natural for people to be focused on their own plight and not be able maintain interest in a conflict that isn't affecting their day to day.

Especially when the perception is things are going well in one's own neck of the woods.



Sure. All I was saying was why I thought public support was losing ground.
I think your right on the money with that thought process, I have heard those exact sentiments reflected by some.

Not saying I agree with those sentiments but I think that’s what the thought process is turning into, combined with the classic Russian disinformation (Ukrainians committing genocide in dombas etc.), and bleed over from some of the Republicans in the States.
 
I think your right on the money with that thought process, I have heard those exact sentiments reflected by some.

Not saying I agree with those sentiments but I think that’s what the thought process is turning into, combined with the classic Russian disinformation (Ukrainians committing genocide in dombas etc.), and bleed over from some of the Republicans in the States.

I've been hearing the same things my friend.
 
So if Ukraine refers to this conflict is as fighting international terrorists from Russia, and Russia refers to it as a Special Military Operation, then technically there is no "war" in Ukraine so no barrier to NATO accession. (Other than Hungary, Turkey and possibly Slovakia.)
 
So if Ukraine refers to this conflict is as fighting international terrorists from Russia, and Russia refers to it as a Special Military Operation, then technically there is no "war" in Ukraine so no barrier to NATO accession. (Other than Hungary, Turkey and possibly Slovakia.)
Beyond enough silly buggers to remind everyone that Turkey Matters, I'd have thought Ankara would be just as happy to see more of their northern coast in NATO hands, never mind another opportunity to tell Moscow to do one.
 
Charge Musk with treason and nationalize starlink.

Since Russia declared Alaska should belong to them that should make a clear enough case Russia is a enemy of the US (and that excludes everything else they do including the regular threats to use nukes). Providing Starlink to them would be providing aid.
 
Charge Musk with treason and nationalize starlink.

Since Russia declared Alaska should belong to them that should make a clear enough case Russia is a enemy of the US (and that excludes everything else they do including the regular threats to use nukes). Providing Starlink to them would be providing aid.

Easy now. Sanctions dodging happens all the time. While I would absolutely expect Starlink to remote kill any terminals identified as Russian, expecting that technology to not proliferate is simply unrealistic. It’s purpose built to be portable and remotely deployable, so yeah, they’re gonna get purchased in another jurisdiction and snuck in. Given how dependent Ukraine is on them it’s not like the tech can simply be geofenced without screwing Ukraine too.
 
Easy now. Sanctions dodging happens all the time.
True.
While I would absolutely expect Starlink to remote kill any terminals identified as Russian,
One would hope, but that isn’t happening.

expecting that technology to not proliferate is simply unrealistic. It’s purpose built to be portable and remotely deployable, so yeah, they’re gonna get purchased in another jurisdiction and snuck in. Given how dependent Ukraine is on them it’s not like the tech can simply be geofenced without screwing Ukraine too.
If Musk wasn’t such a shitheel, I’d expect Starlink to provide grids for those terminals and let the AFU deliver a present to them.
 
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