RMS Clk Occupation Name & Job Function

[Aerobicrunner]

I was chatting with a CWO the other day and he stated to me that he was at a recent Snr RMS Clk meeting and one of the topics of discussion was the dislike of the word Clerk in our trade name.  The connotation of clerk seems, in my opinion, and according to the CWO many others' opinion, to undervalue what we provide in terms of service to the rest of the military.

In the past, the use of the word clerk may have been more appropriate as, in many cases, that was all you were....type this or file that, were the words many of us heard often .  But in this age of information and technology, many SSAA's (Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Airwomen) of all ranks type their own messages, memo's and, of course, emails.  Even the recruiting pamphlets used to entice individuals and to inform them about the trade, seem to me to use archaic terms and questionable civilian job equivalents, i.e. "Typist and Word Processing Operator."  I think that this sometimes results in individuals not selecting the trade.  Pictures showing RMS Clerks in typical office fashion are far from the reality of what we do in todays military. In addition to all the normal outside the trade work that we do, the prime job function, IMHO, has evolved to the more robust descriptions of  resource management support practitioner (Pte-Cpl*); coordinator (MCpl-Sgt*); advisor (WO-MWO*);  or director (CWO*) {*my ideas of functionality in rank}.

What do you think about our occupation name?  Do you have other ideas about the direction and function of our occupation?  Where do you think our occupation should be in terms of professionalism and training (i.e. civilian accreditation such as: Certified Human Resource Professional {CHRP}; Certified Payroll Management Professional {CPMP}; Professional Logistician {PLog} etc)?

Looking forward to all your comments and the lively debate that should ensue.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

We are clerks, so call us clerks.  We don't need ANOTHER change in name.  I went from Finance Clerk to Admin Clerk to RMS Clerk.  A fourth name is unnecessary.

What's the big deal if others write their own memos?  I drive a truck on occasion but that doesn't make me an MSE Op, nor should it be reflected in my title. Nor should an MSE Op not be called an MSE Op just because I also perform some of the same tasks as he does on infrequent occasions.

Leave well enough alone already and stop wasting time and resources on crap. I don't feel oppressed, abused, or disadvantaged by being called a clerk and the overuse of civilian terms is annoying and frankly embarrassing.  I am not a Human Resources specialist - anyone ever meet HR types in the civilian world?  I have. They'e evil and stupid, mostly, if the ones at Montreal Trust were any indication.

On the other hand, I look with pride to some of the Chief Clerks I've worked for (directors if you will).  Anyone who has ever worked for a Chief Clerk will have their own perceptions of what that title means to them based on the individuals they've known. To me, its a positive connotation.

What is the concern here - that guys getting out of the Army should have decent titles to pad their resumes with? That's no reason to change anything.

 

[George Wallace]

;D

You know Michael, with the name change there would be a sort of promotion for you - in title only.  Then in a few years the CF would find that they have a problem and have to create a new Trade to do clerical work.......and call them Clerks.  ;D

 

[Gouki]

I dunno it would sort of neat to be called a director..

In all honesty, when people ask what I do and I tell them RMS Clerk, all they hear is clerk and the typical response is "oh, you're a clerk" as if my job is of no importance to the army and I don't know how to use a rifle or assemble a tac-vest. I get this surprisingly more from military members than civvies.

Not to disagree with what the obviously more experienced here have said, but I am sort of getting tired (already) of being ... looked down upon perhaps? From people who hear clerk and out of ignorance make their own assumptions about what I do (or don't) do. A lot of importance is on a name, the whole first impression BS.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[dynaglide]

For God's sake, grow a skin!!  Who cares what others think of you because of the connontation of the name "clerk".  Anybody in the military knows what kind of important work you do and if some sort of image pops up in their mind of a secretary serving their boss coffee then that is their problem.  If somebody makes a comment suggesting that, then sort them out and tell them the difference.  Be proud of your hatbadge!

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I dunno it would sort of neat to be called a director..

In all honesty, when people ask what I do and I tell them RMS Clerk, all they hear is clerk and the typical response is "oh, you're a clerk" as if my job is of no importance to the army and I don't know how to use a rifle or assemble a tac-vest. I get this surprisingly more from military members than civvies.

Not to disagree with what the obviously more experienced here have said, but I am sort of getting tired (already) of being ... looked down upon perhaps? From people who hear clerk and out of ignorance make their own assumptions about what I do (or don't) do. A lot of importance is on a name, the whole first impression BS.

Just my 2 cents.

It's not the title, its the other clerks that get you the funny looks.  I think most of the ones here have medical chits and rarely go to the field.  If it is that way all over, then naturally people associate clerks with slugs.  You can call them Supercommandos, but if they still get chits and stay in the office, the title Supercommando will then be associated with slugs also.

It's not the title, its everyone in the same trade that others have met before you that people will base their false assumptions on.

Same with any trade or appointment.

 

[Gouki]

For God's sake, grow a skin!!  Who cares what others think of you because of the connontation of the name "clerk".  Anybody in the military knows what kind of important work you do and if some sort of image pops up in their mind of a secretary serving their boss coffee then that is their problem.  If somebody makes a comment suggesting that, then sort them out and tell them the difference.  Be proud of your hatbadge!

Has nothing to do with growing a skin. It's more of a matter of me sighing and shaking my head when I get that attitude, it's not like I close the shutter window at 1330 to cry in the corner.

Michael: I think you summed it up well.. because for every good clerk I met I've met about ....three or four who don't want to do anything and get chits to get out of PT or field EX's.

 

[NavyGirl280]

LOL atleast you guys got in as RMS CLKs. I applied to the military in hopes to become a "clerk".  I went in and wrote my CFAT and to my surprise, I wasn't "qualified" as a clerk. I had been offered a couple other choices but not what I wanted, so I rewrote my CFAT 3 months later. Well I still didnt get in as a clerk. I was offered pretty much everything else under the sun, but no clerk  :-\ .... Now Im waiting for some medical papers to go through and send them off to Borden and then I can finally finish becoming a meathead  : LOL

Personally I dont think there is anything wrong with the name "clerk"..... keep it as is


S.Bradbury     

 

[Brad Sallows]

Before you get too excited, if you are going to have a new title, keep it short and practical.  An overly grandiose title can backfire by becoming the butt of ridicule.

 

[Pearson]

May i suggest
"Crack Liason Experts for Rejects  in Kandahar".....??



When I was in, the clerks were the "go to guys", the guy that could help sort out any issues. They were always apperciated. They were there to sort out the many issues that regularly pop up during deployment, or day to day life.
What's in a name...everyone knows that infantry are stopid unedumacated yard apes right?  :
Of course not, but I have met many in the general public that have that view.

my 2 pennies........

 

[doomwolf]

The title's fine. I'm a reserve clerk with the Cameron's in Ottawa, doing QL3 Part 1 now. I really like pointing out to people that I've been on more ex's than some of the infantry guys in my unit this past year. I don't find "clerk" a derogatory title; it's what we are.

 

[rms]

Time for my 2 cents:

I personally don't think that we need a new name - I have been a Clerk (Admin then RMS) for almost 13 years and it suits me just fine!

With the combined trades now - I think that the powers that be would be hard press to find another name that takes into consideration all of the things that a "Clerk" does.  When explaining to a civilian what I do, I explain my job at the moment - the trade is just too broad to explain everyway that we could be employed.

As long as we Clerks understand our purpose, role and function in the CF - it's all good regardless of what we are called!

rms

 

[ZipperHead]

I'll thrown in my bit here (as an Armour Crewman, or perhaps maybe "Conductor of MultiTerrain, Turreted Land Beasts" would sound more cool..... I don't even want to think about how that would translate over to french).

I have a saying, which although is a bit unPC, seems to hammer the point across: "Whether you call it sodomy or ass-rape, the pain felt is the same". I was first exposed to bureacratic double-speak when I was enrolling. The person taking the information (I would hate to use the term "clerk" as it seems to cause some emotional distress to a select few) asked what my mother did for a living. I said "She's a housewife". They wrote down "Domestic Engineer". Suuuuuurrrrre.

I remember reading a joke list of all the job titles given to jobs to make them sound more important than they really are, with the winner (in my mind) being "Dispenser of Petroleum Products" (or something similar) being used for gasbar jockey. It's bad enough that we are becoming more corporate in using terms like "supervisor", "manager" and "director" rather than terms such as "leader", we don't need to create some flowery terms to sound more important than we really are. Because, no doubt, after you spit whatever wonk term that would be implemented, somebody would look at you with glazed eyes until you say "I'm a clerk".

I suppose if you want to be relegated to the joke heap of history, a name-change (something really grandious, I hope) would definitely be in order. Because, at the end of the day (and for a good 50-100 years, at the minimum) you will still be called "clerk" by everyone in uniform. We still use Dragoons, Hussars, Fusiliers, etc in Regimental names, fer crisakes, so don't think "clerk" would disappear anytime soon from our collective memory.

Al

 

[Michael Dorosh]

It's bad enough that we are becoming more corporate in using terms like "supervisor", "manager" and "director" rather than terms such as "leader", we don't need to create some flowery terms to sound more important than we really are.

"Director, Ordnance Services" was a specifically military term used throughout most of the 20th Century up until Unification in 1968, so its use is not necessarily "corporate".  Likewise, "Supervisor" was a specific term for officer(-equivalent)s of the Auxiliary Services (YMCA, Canadian Legion, Knights of Columbus) in the Second World War - as such "quasi-military" but not entirely corporate either.  The military is supposed to reflect society, and society often reflects collective military experience (common words like "lousy", "jerrycan"  or "trenchcoat" came right out of the trenches and into everyday language), so a sharing of terminology is both inevitable and not as unprecedented as one might think. I'm not aware of a military precedent for "Manager" but would not be suprised to hear of one.

 

[ZipperHead]

My point about the use of "corporate" terms is that it seems that the CF was trying to establish itself as a company, replete with company policies, and distancing itself from the profession of arms. I would much more prefer to be referred to as a leader than as a supervisor. If anyone thinks that there isn't a difference, well, they have probably never been a leader.

The militaries of the world can never try to become like a company that has a bottom line. The CDS himself has said that the CF has has too many MBA's in the past, removing redundancies in order to "trim the fat". Guess who's paying for those measures now??? All of us in uniform right now. Anybody who isn't doing the job of at least one other person, and usually at one (or more) rank levels hiigher has my complete and unabashed envy, because I, and most of my peers, subordinates, and superiors, have been doing far more with far less since some egg-head decided that we had to "trim the fat".

So yes, I have a hatred of corporate double-speak that does nothing to improve the quality of work, and has more to do with self-importance and whitewashing what something really is: is "secretary" so demeaning as to neccesitate a rebranding to "administrative assistant". Call me old-school, but "secretary" fit's the bill without making the person doing the job sound like a peon.

Everything old is new again, so, no, I am not surprised to hear that some of the terms that I mentioned ("director", "supervisor", etc) were used in years past by the military, and terms such as Chief Executive/Financial/Technical Officer obviously have roots in the military, but the issue I have is with wanting to "civilianize" the Forces any more than has occured. If one looks closely, those generic terms used in the past are going away. Notice that many things referred to as "Land Forces" are being replaced by the good ol' term "Army": Army Fitness Manual being a prime example.

I suppose if one wants to have a job that has a civilian title associated with it, get a job with a civilian company.

Al

 

[Gunner]

The CDS himself has said that the CF has has too many MBA's in the past, removing redundancies in order to "trim the fat".

Allan, this doesn't sound like something Gen Hillier would say.  Do you have a source for this comment?  I'll say it again, Comds make decisions, not officers with MBAs.

 

[George Wallace]

How about "Coallator of Liasons, Electronic Records and Communications"?  CLERC for short. 

 

[ZipperHead]

Allan, this doesn't sound like something Gen Hillier would say.  Do you have a source for this comment?  I'll say it again, Comds make decisions, not officers with MBAs.

I knew somebody would make me pay for not doing my research...... I'll try to track it down (I don't remember if it was in these forums, or on some DND site) so I may not get back until tomorrow with this info. I am 99% certain that it was the CDS that said that (and not just my imagination), but I will endeavour to track this quote down.

Al

 

[Gunner]

Allan, you may be thinking of comments attributed to LCol Eyre that were discussed on another thread. 

I'm a bit biased as a MBA student...

 

[rmacqueen]

Allan, this doesn't sound like something Gen Hillier would say.  Do you have a source for this comment?  I'll say it again, Comds make decisions, not officers with MBAs.

Actually, having met Hillier in the past, it does sound like a comment he would make about the bureaucratic 80's when death by paper cut was the NDHQ motto.

Having been on both sides, Armoured NCM then remuster to clerk, the image of the RMS clerk has more to do with the preponderance of MIR commandoes that are within its ranks.  Too many are there to serve in comfort, content to drive a desk, get their pay and go home at 4.  Taking on more corporate titles would only serve to further this image.

For those of us who chose the trade willingly, not to deek the field, the pride is in doing the best job possible for members we serve.  Some of my proudest moments were fighting for the rights of the members and getting them what they deserve.  A soldier cannot be effective if he/she is worrying about their pay or family or leave and, as clerks, we can help to alleviate that burden.

Having said that, the real clerks go forward with pride in what they bring to the table, pride in the uniform they wear and pride in the affect they have on their "people".  The fakes stand out in the end and the soldiers know who they are.