CT-114 Tutor

OldSolduer · 8 Apr 2023

Good2Golf said:
I bet you ~~Steven Guilbault~~ King Steven the Eco Warrior would axe them in a heartbeat if he were MND instead of architect of the Justin Transition…unless someone came up with an electric Tutor…

FTFY -

CBH99 · 8 Apr 2023

I was under the impression a lot of the kit bought during the Afghan war years was UOR'd also, but maybe it was just straightforward procurements & a lack of widely available options that made it seem that way.

(Can't have much of a competition when the C-17 was the only game in town)

Surely to goodness, we are NOT going to pay IMP Aerospace to upgrade 20 Tutors with glass cockpits & touch screen displays, new radios, etc (Except we have & will continue to do so)

I mean we still use the Hawk for lead-in fighter training, no? Surely we could procure 20 more of those so at least there is some familiarity, an already existing support pipeline, etc

Good2Golf · 8 Apr 2023

SeaKingTacco said:
Oh, what would you know….

Trying to forget...do you think VAC would approve a "worked in DND procurement" claim?

suffolkowner · 8 Apr 2023

We use Harvards and Hawks as trainers now but are both not possibly being replaced soon? I include the Harvard because does the Tutor replacement need to be a jet?

GK .Dundas · 8 Apr 2023

CBH99 said:
(Can't have much of a competition when the C-17 was the only game in town)

Not that we didn't try ,I can still remember 3or4 provincial premiers holding a press conference together.
Demanding that we purchase such aircraft in Canada. Or failing that make a better deal for a piece of the manufacturing.

Quirky · 8 Apr 2023

suffolkowner said:
We use Harvards and Hawks as trainers now but are both not possibly being replaced soon? I include the Harvard because does the Tutor replacement need to be a jet?

From what I heard, yes. Possible option is to buy an extra 20-25 on top of the FaCT purchase, assuming they want to keep an air demonstration squadron around past the Tutors 2030's retirement. Also assuming 2030 is in fact when the tutor is retired.

suffolkowner · 8 Apr 2023

Quirky said:
From what I heard, yes. Possible option is to buy an extra 20-25 on top of the FaCT purchase, assuming they want to keep an air demonstration squadron around past the Tutors 2030's retirement. Also assuming 2030 is in fact when the tutor is retired.

Yeah so they should go that route IMO unless everyone is in love with the Tutor with new engines and ejection seat as mentioned above

CBH99 · 9 Apr 2023

suffolkowner said:
Yeah so they should go that route IMO unless everyone is in love with the Tutor with new engines and ejection seat as mentioned above

I’ve always wondered how it even gets the performance it does with only that itty bitty ghetto looking jet nozzle poking out the back of it…

I’m guessing we’ll lose another Snowbird aircraft before 2030 hits (better not lose the crew with those new ejection seats) and that will be the final straw on their replacement.

GK .Dundas said:
Not that we didn't try ,I can still remember 3or4 provincial premiers holding a press conference together.
Demanding that we purchase such aircraft in Canada. Or failing that make a better deal for a piece of the manufacturing.

Gosh we really need that facepalm emoji as a reaction option

FormerHorseGuard · 10 Apr 2023

Snowbird replacement project has been kicked around the clouds for decades.

One report has the cost at 1.5 Billion dollars Canadian. Says the government has no wish to spend that because of blow back by the tax payer
Instead spending 30 million to upgrade them.

No replacement for RCAF Snowbirds, the Tutor to be kept until 2030

No replacement for RCAF Snowbirds, Canadian government to keep current jet until 2030

www.blogbeforeflight.net

National Post ( Post Media Reporter) claims back in Aug 2012 that 755 million dollars was being budgeted for replacement

"Lt.-Gen. Eric Kenny, the new commander of the Royal Canadian Air Force, sees a bright future ahead for the Snowbirds despite the planes having been grounded after a plane crashed following a hard landing in Fort Saint John, B.C. earlier this month.

Speaking to the CBC after his instalment ceremony at the Canada Aviation and Space Museum in Ottawa, Kenny said he's optimistic about the future of the Snowbirds and is "looking forward to having them showcased in the 2024 100th anniversary of the Royal Canadian Air Force."

The team flies in CT-114 Tutor aircraft manufactured more than 50 years ago but the planes are regularly inspected and maintained by military crews." cbc.ca/news/politics/snowbirds-eric-kenny-1.6550157

skiesmag.com/news/boeing-aircraft-future-roles/ has a great story of replacement aircraft and what should replace the Snowbirds.

GR66 · 10 Apr 2023

FormerHorseGuard said:
Snowbird replacement project has been kicked around the clouds for decades.

One report has the cost at 1.5 Billion dollars Canadian. Says the government has no wish to spend that because of blow back by the tax payer
Instead spending 30 million to upgrade them.

No replacement for RCAF Snowbirds, the Tutor to be kept until 2030

No replacement for RCAF Snowbirds, Canadian government to keep current jet until 2030

www.blogbeforeflight.net

National Post ( Post Media Reporter) claims back in Aug 2012 that 755 million dollars was being budgeted for replacement

"Lt.-Gen. Eric Kenny, the new commander of the Royal Canadian Air Force, sees a bright future ahead for the Snowbirds despite the planes having been grounded after a plane crashed following a hard landing in Fort Saint John, B.C. earlier this month.

Speaking to the CBC after his instalment ceremony at the Canada Aviation and Space Museum in Ottawa, Kenny said he's optimistic about the future of the Snowbirds and is "looking forward to having them showcased in the 2024 100th anniversary of the Royal Canadian Air Force."

The team flies in CT-114 Tutor aircraft manufactured more than 50 years ago but the planes are regularly inspected and maintained by military crews." cbc.ca/news/politics/snowbirds-eric-kenny-1.6550157

skiesmag.com/news/boeing-aircraft-future-roles/ has a great story of replacement aircraft and what should replace the Snowbirds.

Considering the age of most of our aircraft I guess it's highly appropriate that the commander of the RCAF had his instalment ceremony at a museum...

CBH99 · 10 Apr 2023

Considering the ArriveCAN app could have cost next to nothing (like actually, even the $250K it was quoted as costing was absurd) and ended up costing triple-digit millions...

Plus JT's numerous taxpayer funded vacations, which he's taken more of even after the Ethics Commissioner told him "No Justin, vacations need to come out of your OWN pocket..."

The recent 4 day $700,000 trip the GG went on...

Plus the untold millions that been awarded to Mark Norman, Omar Khadr, etc etc

Even if it ended up costing the full $1.5B - Canadians would be thrilled if that money was actually used to benefit Canadian interests & proudly project a Canadian legacy

Its one of the rare times we get to see, as a country, our taxpayer dollars spent on something that over the summer months many people will get to enjoy first hand

If they feel taxpayers would backlash at $1.5B spent on the Snowbirds replacement, and haven't noticed us balking at the mass burning of taxpayer money in the recent budget - they really are out of touch with the citizenry...

__________________________

Assuming the $1.5B is just intended for the acquisition of airframes so the current Tutors can be replaced...would it even cost the full $1.5B?

YZT580 · 10 Apr 2023

CBH99 said:
Considering the ArriveCAN app could have cost next to nothing (like actually, even the $250K it was quoted as costing was absurd) and ended up costing triple-digit millions...

Plus JT's numerous taxpayer funded vacations, which he's taken more of even after the Ethics Commissioner told him "No Justin, vacations need to come out of your OWN pocket..."

The recent 4 day $700,000 trip the GG went on...

Plus the untold millions that been awarded to Mark Norman, Omar Khadr, etc etc

Even if it ended up costing the full $1.5B - Canadians would be thrilled if that money was actually used to benefit Canadian interests & proudly project a Canadian legacy

Its one of the rare times we get to see, as a country, our taxpayer dollars spent on something that over the summer months many people will get to enjoy first hand

If they feel taxpayers would backlash at $1.5B spent on the Snowbirds replacement, and haven't noticed us balking at the mass burning of taxpayer money in the recent budget - they really are out of touch with the citizenry...

__________________________

Assuming the $1.5B is just intended for the acquisition of airframes so the current Tutors can be replaced...would it even cost the full $1.5B?

OR DOES IT INCLUDE LIFECYCLE COSTS AS THE F35 FIGURES DID

Spencer100 · 10 Apr 2023

YZT580 said:
OR DOES IT INCLUDE LIFECYCLE COSTS AS THE F35 FIGURES DID

I wish they would come clean on the Arrive Can app. It was that expensive because they were building in a ton of stuff into. They want to the human out of the booths. That's coming. You may see the first at the Gordie Howe. It was to have full tracking in the app too. Plus the data base was sized to handle it. They wanted to make the full digital border.

If they had said that the cost is understandable but they didn't and just took the political cost of looking like they overpaid. They would have received more backlash from anti digital id people so took the path of just looking dumb. It was a political calculus made.

FSTO · 10 Apr 2023

Tudor - Be like: Die Motherf**ker

Spencer100 · 10 Apr 2023

GR66 said:
Considering the age of most of our aircraft I guess it's highly appropriate that the commander of the RCAF had his instalment ceremony at a museum...

Just a comment as I am not a pilot but my friend was a Snowbird pilot (I know) and he told me for the show the Snowbirds put on the Tutor is a good platform (he didn't like the age but the Techs are amazing) The straight wing and low stall speed is great for the show. Even better the Hawks we when there.

Just my opinion the Snowbirds because of the jet do put on a good show. Having seen the US teams. They are cool big and loud but the Snowbirds are better at the show part because of the slower speed.

CBH99 · 10 Apr 2023

Spencer100 said:
I wish they would come clean on the Arrive Can app. It was that expensive because they were building in a ton of stuff into. They want to the human out of the booths. That's coming. You may see the first at the Gordie Howe. It was to have full tracking in the app too. Plus the data base was sized to handle it. They wanted to make the full digital border.

If they had said that the cost is understandable but they didn't and just took the political cost of looking like they overpaid. They would have received more backlash from anti digital id people so took the path of just looking dumb. It was a political calculus made.

Thats a fascinating take on the situation that I hadn't considered before...

I don't want to derail the thread, but the more we learn about everything our government was up to during the pandemic - and has since done while using the pandemic as a springboard justification - the harder it is to dismiss the idea it wasn't a convenient cover for so many other things

Back to the topic...you're actually right about the Snowbirds being better at the show part.

Years ago I was fortunate enough to see the Thunderbirds perform, and it was pretty damn cool! Loud, fast, cool paint jobs on F-16's, etc. But they were so fast, the only times to see them for more then a few seconds at a time was at certain parts of the show.

For that aspect of it, the Snowbirds are a better show.

FormerHorseGuard · 11 Apr 2023

I use to work at the VIP photo line at the Hamilton Air Show in the 90s so I got to hang out in the VIP lounge afterwards and meet the pilots of various groups.

I forget what US team was there but they were saying if the Snow Birds had the high power jets and did the same style of show they would be a real show stopper. They were saying the skill and the show the Snowbirds put on was more amazing then their own show. Flashy jets are not everything.

Newer equipment would change the show but that costs money

Spencer100 · 11 Apr 2023

CBH99 said:
Thats a fascinating take on the situation that I hadn't considered before...

I don't want to derail the thread, but the more we learn about everything our government was up to during the pandemic - and has since done while using the pandemic as a springboard justification - the harder it is to dismiss the idea it wasn't a convenient cover for so many other things

100% it was. The ArriveCan will be coming back. ReBranded of course. For somethings it makes sense. But the one gov DB gives me the chills.

Spencer100 · 11 Apr 2023

Just a thought I would post a list potentials. Also will need to replace the Hawks too. So I'm listing the current trainers.

I'm listing jets. If props for the Snowbirds I would just say forget it.

Top of the list.

OldSolduer · 11 Apr 2023

Question please?
When one is buying a jet trainer (Ie Hawk etc) does that trainer mimic the flight characteristics of the real fighter(S)? or is fighter training a whole other level?

CT-114 Tutor

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