Iran Super Thread- Merged

[CivU]

Only democracy? Didn't the US just install a democracy in Afghanistan...

And what are the necessary allegiances of the US to Israel beyond political concerns, I hardly think their protecting them out of their own humanitarian aims.  Beyond that, look at history.  Israel can militarily take care of itself, not to mention that it is the only nation in the region possessing nuclear weapons...

 

[48Highlander]

Well you're allowed to hardly think if you want, but I'm pretty sure most of us are in agreement on the neccesity, both for humanitarian reasons and self-interest, of strong relations between the US and Israel.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

How do you Install a democracy?

What if you can't figure out how to work it, does it come with a warranty or exchange policy?

 

[George Wallace]

How do you Install a democracy?

It takes time.  They will have to have Election after Election over a great number of years, before the populace is comfortable and safe from Terrorists.  Eventually "Lawlessness" will be done away with and the people will have a "safe" democratic nation.

What if you can't figure out how to work it, does it come with a warranty or exchange policy?

Like our "Democracy" there are no warranties or garrantees.  No exchange policy.

It took years for the nations after WW II to create Democracies that worked.  There was no magic wand waved and presto Japan, Germany, Italy and a few other nations like Taiwan, became Democracies.  It took years.  Some worked out better than others. 

GW

 

[Gouki]

Especially in an area like the Middle East with it's religious problems and civil strife..

 

[48Highlander]

Check out what Collier's magazine had to say about the posibility of democracy in Italy.  The parrallels are just amazing.


Quoted from http://www.calblog.com


Can Italy Learn Democracy?

That's the headline on the cover of a Collier's magazine dated November 27, 1943. It's an article written when Italy was in the throes of a post-war state similar to that in Iraq. Here's the article summary, straight from page 11:
Besides the adults who are members of the Party, Italy has a whole generation which reached maturity under Fascism. Re-educating this group and settling antagonisms which threaten to produce a civil war are the big problems in the creation of a democratic Italy

Such doom and gloom. Sound familiar? Substitute Saddam for Fascism and Iraq for Italy and this could have been written this morning in any number of mainstream press outlets.

Here are some passages about Marshal Badoglio, the man leading Italy before their first elections -- the equivalent of Iraq's Allawi:
There's so little leadership left in Italy that up to mid-October, Badoglio hadn't been able to find enough men, pending opening of the jail doors, to fill out his cabinet.

* * *

But he has guaranteed the British and American governments that, upon his installation in Rome, he will form a government of all shadings of public opinion, excluding all Fascists or pro-Fascists. As soon as possible after Italy's liberation, elections will be held to permit Italians to choose their own government.


How did Italy ever make it? And what's this "British and American governments"? Why isn't there a broader-based coalition?

There's no timeline for elections there. Parts of Italy, though Mussolini was toppled, were still controlled by the Germans. Badoglio didn't have peace throughout the whole country yet. Parts were a "no-go" zone, as Kerry complained about parts of Iraq.

Remember Kerry's complaints that Alawi had to rule from behind a walled compound:
n what is left of Italy -- four provinces in the heel of the boot . . . [the king] and Badoglio live in damp, unheated villas without running water.

Were there complaints that Badoglio was a puppet government? Of course:
Members of [the Communist and Socialist] organizations to whom I talked in Cairo, Algiers and here in Italy, complain that by "setting up" the king and Badoglio, the Allies have not given the Italians leaders who symbolize the true democtratic sentiment of the people.

The conclusion to the article expresses the hopelessness of the situation:
In spite of all indications of progress, Italy's ultimate destiny is clouded in uncertainties. Italy is a nation with a glorious Roman past, and a tragic Fascist present, and an unfathomable future. . . . Compared to these problems, the matter of forming a new government in freed Italy, with or without Badoglio, fades into unimportance.

Just as holding elections in Iraq doesn't matter with terrorists still in control of Fallujah?

 

[onecat]

"Like our "Democracy" there are no warranties or garrantees.  No exchange policy.

It took years for the nations after WW II to create Democracies that worked.  There was no magic wand waved and presto Japan, Germany, Italy and a few other nations like Taiwan, became Democracies.  It took years.  Some worked out better than others."

If you at the inter-war period you would see that Germany was very democratic and had those traditions in place well before WW1.  It was the events of great depression taht lead to the growth in support of Hilter.  Once he was in, he changed the system to keep his party in power. If the depression had never taken place then the US would not stopped the loans it was giving to Germany to help it pay France and UK for WW1.  Without the loans it send the German economy into a tail spin and this helped to get Hilter elected. 

 

[48Highlander]

If you at the inter-war period you would see that Germany was very democratic and had those traditions in place well before WW1.   It was the events of great depression taht lead to the growth in support of Hilter.   Once he was in, he changed the system to keep his party in power. If the depression had never taken place then the US would not stopped the loans it was giving to Germany to help it pay France and UK for WW1.   Without the loans it send the German economy into a tail spin and this helped to get Hilter elected.  

Ah, I knew it had to be the americans fault somehow

If you want to be technical about it, Iraq was also demcratic for a bit before they elected Sadam.

 

[Gouki]

48Highlander.. he did not blame it on the Americans. It was just one of things that helped Hitler rise to power. One of many, many things.

Love of God .. the way you react to anything challenging America, you're like someone who gets tapped on the shoulder and jumps up guns blazing ready to go in  a split second.

 

[48Highlander]

Get a sense of humour Steve.  Either that or buy glasses so you can see the little winking smiley face in that post

 

[Gouki]

My contacts are working fine ... that post may not have been the best example around but it's how you react in general to anything remotely "anti-american" or against America in almost any way that I was talking about. Call it whatever you want to call it but you come off as having a rather short fuse that isn't hard to light.

 

[48Highlander]

My responses to whatshernuts aren't exactly the best example.  Look into the discussions I've had with more intelligent members of the board and you'll realize you're off-base.  Or don't.  I don't particularily care about your opinion of me, so unless I'm addressing you, feel free to keep it to yourself.  If you have other things you wish to discuss that's fine, I have nothing against you, but leave personal comments out of it.

 

[MagieNoire]

Unfortunately I've contributed to this .. but this thread is getting pretty far from what it was meant to be .. I was really enjoynig hearing the debate about the US and Iran and such before ... all this happened. So does anyone else have anymore to say about Iran..?

Briefly, I feel Iran is far my dangerous than Iraq was under Saddam. Look at history. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

Saddam at least was under watch and contained but Iran.

I believe the US will head off to Iran next. A very scary proposition.

This has been an interesting thread to read. I see other issues that were brought up, but out of respect for the OP, I won't comment on them.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

We really got off topic there for a while.

Can we get back to the crushing of Iran by the mucho Superior forces of the USA.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I would rather see someone put a stop to the assholes in africa killing men women and children then bothering with iran. They remind me of Russia feeling ignored and having to rattle their cage evey so often.

 

[Fusaki]

I would rather see someone put a stop to the assholes in africa killing men women and children then bothering with iran.

Agreed.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Time to stir the pot

WHy would they be interested in Africa there is little oil there and no money for the US to take an interest in?

Really you think that they will just back away from Iran and Syria to go to Africa a contient that has been killing each other since the dawn of man?  For what reason.  Other then humanitarian.  they will let some other nations solve that problem they will stay where the money is.

 

[Jarnhamar]

WHy would they be interested in Africa there is little oil there and no money for the US to take an interest in?

Oh I agree with you. Whats in Africa? Well, nothing.

Some people are going to argue that we should go there because it's the humane thing to do. (I'm one of those dreamers heh)

Others are going to say Iran and the middle east pose more of a threat. Depending how you look at it, thats  true too.  

What irks me is when people start claiming all these rightious reasons for being involved in the middle east yet seemingly ignoring other conflicts. The chaos and killing in Iraq is nothing compared to whats going on in africa.   If were going to involve ourselves with the middle east "to protect ourselves" then thats great, but we should call a spade a spade.   If we want to go to war to "kill evil doers" then lets go crack some heads of people who deserve it and leave no stone unturned.

 

[Torlyn]

Time to stir the pot

WHy would they be interested in Africa there is little oil there and no money for the US to take an interest in?

You really think that the war in Iraq is about oil???  Given the cost that the latest Iraqi incursion has cost the united states, (estimates around 151 billion and rising) coupled with the cost of the first persian war (76 billion) you're looking at the american financial cost of ~226 billion dollars...  This does not include any monies or debt forgiveness by the americans to help rebuild the infrastructure in Iraq...  Now, latest estimates have Iraq holding about 112 billion barrels of oil in TOTAL reserves...  Their current output is about 2.5 million barrels a day...  Doing the math, even IF the Americans were to pull, let's say, 50% of the profit out of each bbl (unlikely for obvious reasons) and it costs roughly $8 barrel, with the current price around $48 a barrel, the Americans would be getting $20/barrel, or $50,000,000 a day.  So, just to pay what the actual financial costs have been, they would have to continue stealing that 50% of profits at $48 a barrel for 4520 days, or just under 13 years.  And that's providing they pulled out all support immediately, and refused to help with the rebuilding of the infrastructure.

That 50% of profits is ridiculously high for a reason...  The Americans would not be able to santion Iraq in such a manner at all, and it is highly unlikely that the rest of OPEC would be willing to allow the US to make any sort of "deals" with Iraq to provide cheaper oil, so the above scenario is just to illustrate that even if treaty of versailles-esque sanctions were to be leveled against Iraq, it still wouldn't be worth it.

I just really don't see how anyone can honestly believe the Americans are in Iraq for money.  I used to believe that they were there solely for oil, until I went and crunched the numbers.  It just doesn't seem right.  IMHO, of course. 

T

EDIT - Ghost778 - I agree. 

 

[Wizard of OZ]

If it was really about killing  :mg: the evil doers > don't you think they would be in North Korea by now .  No this about stabalizing the oil supply from the Gulf and keeping prices resonable for the economy.  yea with some stomping of bad guys to boot.  But really about the good ole green back.  And maybe a little pay back from daddy's last visit to finish some busniess.

It is more then just about oil my friend there is more money there then just oil.