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Engineering Experiences in Afghanistan

Infanteer

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I've put this as a sort of challenge to our Sapper brothers who've also returned with a boatload of fresh combat experience.  Remember OPSEC/PERSEC, but fire away.

boondocksaint said:
5- the Chimo's-- they also fought as hard as everyone else, and hopefully some of them on here can relay some of their experiences as well, when my Lav was broken for awhile, I had my sect in a Chimo Lav with their guys driving-gunning-crew commanding- you dont train for that stuff, it just works out

Can anyone add to this - thoughts on kit?  Battle loads?  Working with the combined arms teams?  Go to the linked thread to see the sort of things being discussed from the Infantry perspective.

Chimo,
Infanteer
 
Infanteer said:
I've put this as a sort of challenge to our Sapper brothers who've also returned with a boatload of fresh combat experience.  Remember OPSEC/PERSEC, but fire away.

Can anyone add to this - thoughts on kit?  Battle loads?  Working with the combined arms teams?  Go to the linked thread to see the sort of things being discussed from the Infantry perspective.

Chimo,
Infanteer

Hopefully we'll get some engineers on here (PS: pedantic mode on: "CAT" is now known (again) as a "combat team" ;D)
 
I should have said "Combined Arms Teams" - I meant working with the other arms in general.  Anyways.... :dontpanic:
 
In my past experience I had always found that the Engineers were working closely with the other combat arms. Mind you it had always been in exercise mode rather than full blown operations as is the case now a days. It would be interesting to hear what others have to say.....

Chimo
 
I think there were a lot of very interesting lessons learned. 

We did a lot of operating as infantry.  This was excellent when done right.  A hadfull of Sappers could go out with a patrol and contribute to its combat power, but as soon as there was an engineer task the guys were right there to deal with it properly.

Each rifle company should have a Tp (-) to support and there needs to be additional depth of engineers within the BG to surge where needed.  Two sections provide an adequate baseline level of support and ensure there are enough engineers to provide coverate to every patrol.  The Tp HQ provides a framework for additional engr attachments in the coy, provides engr planning and advice to the coy, coordinates the work of the sections, and allows the two sect comds to focus on supervision of their sections.

The UK search training is excellent; this should be expanded on and we should get some of the higher tech kit that can support this.  The stuff can be held in with troop stores and used when we're called on for deliberate search ops (or hasty search ops as we often saw when the more elite dedicated types could not make it out to play). 

EOR (explosive ordinance recce) needs greater emphasis in our training and equipment.  Every Recce Sgt should have one of the Vanguard mini-robots as part of his kit.

 
The Engineer Sgt who gave our IED/mine brief said that's how they tried to operate.  Like you said they were 031 up until something suspcious was seen, then off they went.  Called up higher if required.
 
All,

I want to keep this thread pure as I think it is a good one.  However, I can't help myself when I know that conclusions may be forthcoming on the Cbt Engrs v.s. Pioneer debate....again.  Respecting that there is another thread on this already, I draw you to the subtleties of "engrs acting like infantry (secondary role)" v.s. "infantry (pioneers) acting like engrs (course qualified)".  As McG has pointed out, the threat is becoming more sophisticated than ever before (part of the 'democratization of technology' theory).  Therefore, it is taking a greater degree of technology to defeat them.  Clearly, you know what side of the fence I sit upon based on my handle.  But I think that way for good reason.  I believe it is the Engineers that have the depth of knowledge and experience of "living it" throughout their whole career that make them the ones who should be 'assisting friendly forces to live, move and fight on the battlefield and denying the same to the enemy'.  Why do we look and act like our infantry brothers on the way to the objective, and sometimes through the objective?  Quite simply, we cannot become a liability to those whose job it is to 'close with and destroy the enemy'.  Yes, we may be asked to 'muck it up' alongside our 'manouvre elements' on occasion; however, we must be careful not to become decisively engaged as we may be required to execute our role for the greater good of all some place else.

Although, my experience is from Op APOLLO, and I for one would never compare what is going on now with what we did in 2002...I will say this:  The Sappers held their own on the airmobile operations with respect to soldierly qualities (ie. tactical awareness, fitness, airmobile drills, etc.).  But what 3 PPCLI really wanted from us was to know our stuff when it counted!  IMHO we did just that.

Sapper 6
 
Sapper6 said:
... we may be asked to 'muck it up' alongside our 'manouvre elements' on occasion; however, we must be careful not to become decisively engaged as we may be required to execute our role for the greater good of all some place else.
This is a nice segue into the "wrong" way to employ Engr as infantry.

The "right" way always showed itself to be Engineers fighting as infantry while fighting beside Infantry (note the big "I" to denote the real thing).  We did once see a Tp (-) tasked as an infantry platoon as part of a company's operation/rest cycle (with one pl occupying the Coy AO at any time).  It seemed great (well, at least to some) because it gave the Coy another pl to work with.  The problem is that that if required to fight the Tp (-) would never have had the combat power of the platoons it rotated with, and those platoons never would have sapper support when they needed it.  Fortunately, the weakness of this rotation was realized during the first iteration of its existence & we never saw it again (one could make an argument that operational tempo/activities never provided an opportunity for a repeat, but I like to assume that the CoC also learned from this experience).
 
All of this is second hand from the SNCO's of my unit who have rotated back in the last 6 months, but here goes:

- we're finding that a lot of the skills that we used to think were nice extras are in fact our new core mission- think EOD.  Similarly, there are a number of skills that we used to think as important that aren't used much.  As a result, things like some of the heavy eqpt, and the ROWPU are being downloaded to the reserves to maintain (at least in my area) so that the CER can focus on what's needed overseas.
- there's not nearly enough of us.  The ratio of engineers to manoeuvre elements is creeping up slowly but surely.  As indicated, sending more Tp HQ is proving to be useful- makes the engr advisor to the company commander a Lt instead of a Sgt, and gives each of the Coys engr recce.
-  The problem is that there's not enough of us back in Canada to maintain that pace without breaking.  As much as the infantry is complaining about the pace, one look at an average engr SNCO's rack (of medals) will put things in perspective.
- There's still a need for pioneers, as well as engineers.  The whole idea is that a pioneer gives you a guy who has some of the technical knowledge, but is infantry first, because we really need to remain focussed on our skills first.  We can all be adult about this- the removal of pioneers from the battalions was a budget related decision, not a doctrinal one.

One thing that I should note is that we're also putting this into action in the development of training courses- skills like EOD search and CMD are getting expanded, while things like bridging (the ultimate engineer skill if there was any) are getting cut back or becoming OSS.
 
Echo9 said:
One thing that I should note is that we're also putting this into action in the development of training courses- skills like EOD search and CMD are getting expanded, while things like bridging (the ultimate engineer skill if there was any) are getting cut back or becoming OSS.

But don't you need exactly those type of skillsets to win the hearts and minds so reconstruction can go on? I am not disparaging the different roles, but once the security is stable, and even while it is not, the focus has to be on improving the basic amenities for the people.
 
I believe the bridging he's referring to is the old school method of using a Biber (I don't know the canadian designation: leo bridge layer) under contact, vice construction engineering building a more permanent bridge.  Not being an engineer, I'm not sure when COMBAT engineer ends and CONSTRUCTION engineer begins, but that is my uneducated guess.
 
oh, ok....I'll stay in my lane..  ;D
 
Actually, I do mean bridging writ large.  It's a matter of laying down priorities- you can't do everything.  And in any case, bridging isn't a very hard thing to learn at the sapper level.  The complexity of the task is at the party and bridge commander levels, which lends this task to be better suited for an OSS.

So, we're not jettisoning bridging as an engineer task, but it's taking a back seat to other things.
 
Echo9 said:
- we're finding that a lot of the skills that we used to think were nice extras are in fact our new core mission- think EOD.  Similarly, there are a number of skills that we used to think as important that aren't used much.  As a result, things like some of the heavy eqpt, and the ROWPU are being downloaded to the reserves to maintain (at least in my area) so that the CER can focus on what's needed overseas.


One thing that I should note is that we're also putting this into action in the development of training courses- skills like EOD search and CMD are getting expanded, while things like bridging (the ultimate engineer skill if there was any) are getting cut back or becoming OSS.
I don’t agree with all of this.  EOD (which includes CMD and IEDD) do need much greater emphasis.  I think we are doing good as far as CMD is concerned.  We do need a small IEDD capability in the Fd Tps (I see this as the ability to do high risk search/EOR in order to safely find and identify explosive threats) and we still have room to make a lot of progress on this front.

However, the Hy Eqpt tasks were constant (both inside and outside the wire) and we could have used more of both operators and equipment.  We built roads on KAF to allow for TUAV operations, we remediate old HESCO structures that were no-longer needed but in the way, we supported hardening of the camp medical facilities (until KAF ran-out of material), and a plethora of other tasks inside the wire.  We had to shut-down support to the ESU in order to provide enough operators to build FOB Martello.  As far as Hy Eqpt, I think we need to:
1. Establish a larger hy eqpt capability within the ESU (which had none of its own) and maintain the hy eqpt capability in the CS sqn (though it could be smaller if it is not supporting the ESU).
2. Expand on our FG base for hy eqpt ops in Canada (ie more fully man the CER eqpt troops).  I’ve had mixed experiences with reserve equipment operators, but as a generality the reserves can produce good operators of single pieces/types of equipment.  The guys we take overseas need to be good on all types of equipment (especially those in the Fd Sqn).
3. Ensure that the Fd Sqn epqt has prime movers (dependency on NSE tractors that were primarily focused on recovery ops was not helpful).
4. We need to develop the training we have for equipment supervisors/planners.  I understand CFSME has been working on a course for Tp Comd &  Tp WOs for a while (is it running yet?). 

The ROWPU det was 50% reservist and it was more than capable of the maintenance/inspection of the two systems at the start of the tour.  After that they were combat engineers filling positions that were required but never authorized in the TO&E.  I think the arrangement worked well as long as the ROWPU was not required.

The ILDS is worth mentioning at this point.  We had it and there were a couple tasks that it was ideally suited for, but those all went to contractors because there was nobody qualified to operate it (and contracting was faster than seeking approval & waiting for a TAV).  If equipment is going to be in theatre, the crews need to be there to operate it (even if they operate it in a secondary function).  This is applicable to ROWPU, ILDS and whatever the next fancy gizmo is.  We can still launch TAVs to take over operating these special tools, but we must be capable of operating the equipment as the need arises (not onced the TAV arrives).

Bridging skills were required.  Canada’s first war-time bridge since Korea was a Bailey across the Helmund River (okay, it was ANA labour, US security, and Canadian Sr NCOs directing the build), and I understand that Op MEDUSA saw at least one combat bridge.  I think bridging as a specialist skill might be workable, but it would have to be a specialist skill held by most Engr NCOs in order to have enough depth for when it was required.

Echo9 said:
- there's not nearly enough of us.  The ratio of engineers to manoeuvre elements is creeping up slowly but surely.  As indicated, sending more Tp HQ is proving to be useful- makes the engr advisor to the company commander a Lt instead of a Sgt, and gives each of the Coys engr recce.
The ability of a Sgt to advise was not so much the problem (the Sgt may not have the tactical training, but he has plenty of experience and technical training to work from); the problem was the sudden lack of a Sgt to supervise.  Once a sect comd was tied to a manoeuvre OC (and throw in leave), we found that the technical experience was not adequate once the section was split in two directions.  Sappers could find themselves executing tasks they’d done once on QL3 (and this time their lives were dependant on getting it done right).  Additionally, infantry platoon commanders would find themselves with attachments that lacked both technical & tactical proficiency on which to advise or support planning.

. . . oh yeah, and two sappers are not enough to meet the needs of a platoon.  I became particularly convinced of the suitability of the half section to provide a minimum “framework ops” support to a platoon.  Two sections for each company even provides depth for a section commander or 2ic to be on leave, or to have an engineer reserve when everyone is in country.

von Grognard said:
I believe the bridging he's referring to is the old school method of using a Biber (I don't know the canadian designation: leo bridge layer) under contact,
Armoured Engineers have always been specialized training.

von Grognard said:
Not being an engineer, I'm not sure when COMBAT engineer ends and CONSTRUCTION engineer begins, but that is my uneducated guess.
There is not really a clear line at times.  I like the British approach of also having combat engineers qualified in a trade. It gives more flexibility to switch between combat operations and reconstruction.  I do not think we have enough depth to try this in the Canadian Army (at least, not at this time).

 
At the ground level, working beside the engineers daily, they tended to need to have the most flexibility of any of us.

Their tasks within a 1 hour period ranged from fighting beside us then conducting clearing of sensitive area's/items. This after building roads, camps, fighting, IED/EOD tasks and back again. Sometimes all of this within a matter of a day. I envied them not.

During a fight, even one that we pick, things tend to get confusing fast, the engineers we had ( with my Pl ) fought when they needed to and did primary roles as required. Not everyone's perfect solution, but one that worked for us. We were fortunate that during training we built a good relationship with these guys and things evolved from there. I think it really helped that we all knew each other before we went over, and that alleviated alot of 'bun' fights over employment.

I still dont like them at Strong Contender though  ;)



 
Excellent replies...really enjoyed them...
 
Good post boondocksaint!  I think you summed up pretty well what life is like for a Sapper right now in Afghanistan.  Anyone else have recent experience of Engineers doing their 'thang in KAF (inside or outside the wire)?

S6
 
I've made some general comments in the pioneer thread, but here goes:

1.  The comments that I make do not reflect the raw lessons learned, but instead the decisions that are being made out of the distillation of the experience.  So, don't shoot the messenger.

2.  WRT hy eqpt- it kind of depends on what you refer to as heavy equipment.  Traditionally, this got into cranes, graders, excavators as well as dozers and MPEV.  In the 80's or 90's, a spell in heavy troop meant doing a lot of roads and grounds projects for the base.  And rightfully so.  I guess that where I was trying to go in the first posting was that the focus is being taken away from the first set of equipment and directly onto those pieces that provide direct support to the force (dozer + MPEV).  Not what we want to do, but again, it gets back to the choices we need to make.  Your specific comments are well made- we do need to raise the bar generally on the employment of hy eqpt, regardless of how we do the force generation.

3.  I agree completely that bridging is an important skill set for us to retain, and I think will become more relevant as things calm down in the sandbox.  As indicated, the current trajectory of things is that it's going to become an OSS, like heavy equipment, mostly for the reason that I noted earlier that you need an experienced set of party and bridge commanders, but that the rest of the task is really more muscle based than anything.  My concern on this one is more that the ramp up of the OSS is going to take too long, and that a lot of the current skill base will fade before the new path is developed enough.

4.  I also agree with the comment about the Sgt being the technical expert.  He can do it in a pinch, but he's already got one of the hardest jobs on the battlefield without trying to doublehat.
 
boondocksaint said:
At the ground level, working beside the engineers daily, they tended to need to have the most flexibility of any of us.

Their tasks within a 1 hour period ranged from fighting beside us then conducting clearing of sensitive area's/items. This after building roads, camps, fighting, IED/EOD tasks and back again. Sometimes all of this within a matter of a day. I envied them not.

During a fight, even one that we pick, things tend to get confusing fast, the engineers we had ( with my Pl ) fought when they needed to and did primary roles as required. Not everyone's perfect solution, but one that worked for us. We were fortunate that during training we built a good relationship with these guys and things evolved from there. I think it really helped that we all knew each other before we went over, and that alleviated alot of 'bun' fights over employment.

I still dont like them at Strong Contender though   ;)

Boon but that's the life of a muddy old Engineer.
As for Strong Contender that's another Battle Field. ;D
 
I was there building the Ammo storage site and the Compounds for the CSS and the TOC and Hospital. And you are right Echo9 we need to look at heavy equipment.
Never should have got rid of the trade 042 we lost to many operators and we have not caught up to the lost. They need to learn how to use us IE non- Hy eqpt op's and any one above CWO. The eqpt to breach is not a MPEV it is a AEV. The eqpt to dig a hole for construction reasons is a backhoe or excavator.
The eqpt to more a lot of earth fast in a construction site is a dozer not the AEV.
We need to do projects here to keep are operating skills up. We need a HVY EQPT Operator in Ottawa with DSVPM so there is the operator saying what we need not some officer or an EME that doesn't know what we need. Before we moved to Kandahar someone had to plan the construction of the areas that we were going to use in KAF. But here is what I mean that people are in charge but don't know what is needed. They never got any eqpt from Canada they should have asked or sent eqpt from Canada like excavators, dozers, ZL, more dump trucks, compactor with bolt on sheepfoot. We only had one ZL, one backhoe, two HESV, one crane, and a D-6 that was sent over just before we went to KAF. They rented us crap my diecast models would have been more productive. They have always undermanned  and under equip us. We need new dozers, loaders, graders. They need to get us D-9 armoured dozers like the IDF and the US Forces in Iraq. We can get the HET trucks from the US to haul them. We need to have all are eqpt armoured to protect the operator. We are tasked to dig here in Canada in the trg area that are loaded with UXO's not just in theatre.

042 Forever
 
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