"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[Matt_Fisher]

Or blouse them on your boots. 

This is how we do it in the Marines, and I believe the Brits (when they are in the habit of blousing boots) do it as well, although they seem to blouse their cuffs quite a bit lower on the boot.  It does help with not having the circulation to your foot cut off as much as blousing it above the boot on the calf, and I do find that my cuffs didn't get worn out at the back as much as civilian trousers, due to the heel of my boot/shoe stepping on it, therefore extending the lifespan of the trousers a bit.

When I was in Iraq, the commander of 1st Marine Division, Gen. Mattis, put in place an order that all Marines trousers were to be bloused at all times, and we were not allowed to roll our sleeves more than one cuff length up our arms, as he didn't want us to portray an unprofessional image.  Chickensh*t is pretty universal in the military.

 

[KevinB]

Oddly enough the dress pam actually allows for boots to be unbloused and zippers opened in hot weather...

  I would think that whomever wrote the pam understood reality.

 

[RHFC_piper]

Oddly enough the dress pam actually allows for boots to be unbloused and zippers opened in hot weather...

  I would think that whomever wrote the pam understood reality.

Damn it!!  Stop it with the "common sense" stuff already!!  The military isn't supposed to make sense, it's just supposed to look as good in the field as on the parade square...  :


Every once in a while, I find something in some official documentation that seems to make sense and I question weather or not it's a typo...  My suspicions are always confirmed when someone of greater tactical importance produces a directive to contravene these "sensible" directives...  I'm glad someone's on the ball, or we'd look unprofessional in the field.

btw... note the sarcasm.

 

[Greymatters]

Oddly enough the dress pam actually allows for boots to be unbloused and zippers opened in hot weather...
   I would think that whomever wrote the pam understood reality. 

A certain ammount of discretion in what can and cannot be done to modify dress standards is pretty much up to the local commander, as I've seen in past operations.  In one deployment in Central America, the commander authorized all personnel to wear t-shirts (only valid in work areas, not off the airfield, but including on parades; except for the airfield security members who wore full TV, armour and weapons load while on duty).

 

[OldSolduer]

Herein lies the solution:

Allow the local commander, in consultation with his/her Sergeant Major, decide on dress. Now there are certain items of kit you WILL wear, ie BEW, Ballistic Vest, Gloves etc, but as for ventilation by unblousing pants....that should be up to the local commander, not some NDHQ/Land Staff desk warrior.
I'm a bit more concerned about HOW the troops do their jobs (ie fight it out with the enemy) than how they look doing it.

 

[McG]

....that should be up to the local commander, not some NDHQ/Land Staff desk warrior.

But we've already determined it is commanders in theater making decisions about blousing or not.

The dress regs in theater are decided and enforced by:  the theater commander and his RSM.  Therefore, yes, the guy who takes those decisions is in theater...

 

[OldSolduer]

Not according to the Army RSMs notes.....from what I've heard and read, this is Army wide, including Afghanistan.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

You are correct (at least from my O Group)

 

[McG]

.... this is Army wide, including Afghanistan.

Totally different CoC.  CEFCOM is not Army.

 

[OldSolduer]

That may be so, but you know as well as I do that higher ranks love to tread on each others toes. Like I said, I've heard that the troops in Afghanistan are being told the same thing. You WILL blouse your pants.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

I've been following this thread with interest for a while, and have sat on the sidelines, cheering on the 'non-issue kit' crowd. Now that it has evolved into a debate about whether you blouse your trousers in theatre or not, I will chime in with one thing.

Whoever seriously concerns themselves with whether a soldier blouses his trousers or not has FAR TOO MUCH TIME on his hands. We are at WAR, not on parade. Take a look at the brits, in particular the paras/RM, I dare you to show me a photo of 2 british soldiers who look identical. And I doubt anyone questions their fighting prowess.

 

[OldSolduer]

Do not confuse me with the "kitosaursus" crowd that seem to inhabit the senior CWO appointments. I am merely stating what I have seen and heard.
I do not agree with the statement that the un blousing of pants is "fashion". It is in fact a function of ventilation and comfort. In addition, boot bands  cut of circulation to the lower legs and feet.
I think if you are in field on a tac ex, or on ops in Afghanistan, then unbloused pants should be blessed.
Make no mistake about, we in Canada are going to get our marching orders, and that is you WILL blouse your pants at all times. As Snr NCO's and WO's, we can express our views, but once the chain of commands says "Make it so", then we ARE DUTY BOUND to "make it so".

 

[Teeps74]

With ya all the way on that CSM. Us WOs sometimes have to do the things which we do not want to do. We give our advice, and sometimes even fight hard for it... But once the command is given, we enforce it like it was our idea. That is the job. It is the thing that seperates us from mercenaries and irregulars.

 

[Old Sweat]

At the risk of being considered just a tiny bit cynical, take a look at the cover of Christie Blatchford's book Fifteen Days. The first two troops both have unbloused trousers and no doubt present an unmilitary impression, if one discounts the time and place. The picture on the back cover is more of the same.

Heck, while you're at it, take a look at the picture of the South Albertas and the Argylls in the action where David Currie won the VC.  Not too many pretty soldiers in evidence there either. 

 

[Teeps74]

At the risk of being considered just a tiny bit cynical, take a look at the cover of Christie Blatchford's book Fifteen Days. The first two troops both have unbloused trousers and no doubt present an unmilitary impression, if one discounts the time and place. The picture on the back cover is more of the same.

Heck, while you're at it, take a look at the picture of the South Albertas and the Argylls in the action where David Currie won the VC.  Not too many pretty soldiers in evidence there either. 

No one is arguing otherwise. I posted much earlier in this thread, and went on about several kit deficiencies (holster, tac vest). I do not think many would argue against such deficiencies ... What it comes down to though, us at the middle level Chain of Command can not pick and choose which orders are enforced. We can fight battles behind closed doors, but when we lose (and on occasion we do), we come out the door, and the command is made into our idea, and it is enforced (short of unnecessary loss of life).

Just remember. If it goes against common sense, and the CSM or WO is saying it anyways... Chances are, we already fought and lost the battle. Keep your notes for the AAR, and document things properly (AAR, UCR etc etc). Griping, and pushing back at the WO/CSM will get you no where... Bring it here or into the mess.

 

[OldSolduer]

Teeps is absolutely correct. We sometimes forget that the Army is not a democracy, and we don't vote on what piece of kit we should wear or how we should dress.
No one asked me my opinion on any kit issue, but I have voiced my concerns. Now that I've voiced them , I've been told to get on with it.
By the way, does anyone know and quote me the regulations regarding fleece as an outergarment? I will attempt to find that and have a look. If it comes to pass that it is acceptable, I'll pull my horns in.

 

[armyvern]

Teeps is absolutely correct. We sometimes forget that the Army is not a democracy, and we don't vote on what piece of kit we should wear or how we should dress.
No one asked me my opinion on any kit issue, but I have voiced my concerns. Now that I've voiced them , I've been told to get on with it.
By the way, does anyone know and quote me the regulations regarding fleece as an outergarment? I will attempt to find that and have a look. If it comes to pass that it is acceptable, I'll pull my horns in.

From the PIP (]Project Implementation Plan - Linked Here[DIN only])

Top Garments = Sweatshirt/coat/parka, but that's all it says WRT fleece.

57. The ICE is designed to be worn in the
same fashion as the CTS IECS. In general,
the ICE shall be worn as a system with
matching sizes for top garments
(sweatshirt/coat/parka) as well as matching
sizes for bottom garments sweatpants/
trousers/overalls). Each garment is designed
to fit over the one that is under it which
accounts for a five inch difference in
circumference for example, between the
sweatshirt and the last layer, the parka.

I know there was a ref somewhere that said the sweatshirt was "not intended for wear as an outer garment in garrison." I'm still hunting for it.

 

[OldSolduer]

Thanks Vern. Again, well researched as always.
This is only part of the answer, as the CTS answer if you will. What, specifically, if anything has the Land Staff RSM said? Outer garment or not?
Personally, I hate it when troops wear fleece over top of their combat shirts. In my company, it doesn't happen. Period.

 

[armyvern]

Thanks Vern. Again, well researched as always.
This is only part of the answer, as the CTS answer if you will. What, specifically, if anything has the Land Staff RSM said? Outer garment or not?
Personally, I hate it when troops wear fleece over top of their combat shirts. In my company, it doesn't happen. Period.

I thought the ref may have been in the PIP, but apparently is not.

I've had to quote it to RSMs before when they were queried, but damned if I can remember now where "it was written".

I'm still looking for it, but I can't say for certain that it was LF, Area, Base at this point in time. I know that the fleece was deemed acceptable as outer garment in field conditions, but not "in Garrison."

I'll keep hunting --- tomorrow ... it's 1624 here; I need some supper.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Ecco should chime in on the DLR/CTS side of this.. I think he has contacts and is very well versed on the avoidance of "misinformation".

I do remember the discussion of static electricity being passed on in a safety digest issue with regards to wearing the sweatshirt as an outer garment.