Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[Lumber]

Did you update your EMAA email destination for your pay statement before you released? If not, it was probably sent to your old military email.

They were always sent to my Civi email. I released last August and continued receiving $0 pay statements all the way until the end of the FY, then in April they stopped. But! Good idea though. I'll double check if somehow my email address changed and if not I'll reach out to DRSM.

 

[dapaterson]

If you are now drawing Res F pay and were previously Reg F, there may be an EMAA issue with getting pay statements from both RPSR and CCPS on the same payrun.

 

[Furniture]

Right, and EI/CPP aren't a tax either.

Check what line that PLD and CFHD show up on your T4 ... hint hint ... Box 14, Employment income.

No use in trying to pick fly shit from pepper, compensation is compensation, whether it comes in the form of pay, allowances, or other benefits. And people's compensation packages are now uneven based not on their position, job, responsibilities, etc.. but based on whether or not they own a house. That's ludicrous HR policy.

I agree... My sarcasm didn't come through well enough.

You might be right on that, maybe that was the intent, but playing those kind of games usually has unintended consequences. In any case, I doubt it was thought of in that manner, Hanlon's razor and all that.

Again, my sarcasm game was weak. It's the exact opposite of a retention tool, as people advance they get less benefit, and take home close to the same pay they would at a lower rank. It creates an incentive to not advance in places with a large CFHD. When it was announced, I ran the numbers quickly for Ottawa, and the "pay" difference between a S04 S1 and S04 PO1 was about $800 a month. It's close to double that in locations without CFHD.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I think the pay differences now will really be a hard sell for people that really like the S1 type work to jump through the hoops for promotions. For some trades that was an issue even before this, so will be interesting to see how many MarTechs stop at S1/MS level where they still turn wrenches, and don't want to do the Cert 2/3/4 packages, which are a huge amount of work and responsibility. I'm sure there are a lot of other trades in the same boat.

On the officer side, the Maj/LCdr ranks is a pretty sweet spot for doing trade related work with a solid pay, so similarly curious how many people will hard stop there voluntarily. It can be hard to tell though as it's easy to do it artificially by not having an valid language profile, as that doesn't risk punishment postings for opting out.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I think it will lead to more releases. Long term even the move to the 25 year pension had a effect on retention. This is just another blow to the dead cow as at the 8-12 year point when your starting to get sick of it and realize you still have 12+ years left for a pension now your going to receive less and less take home.

Some postings will also be basically a life changing event where your potential take home will drastically differ depending on where your going and the expense of living there. Add in the 40-80k your eligible for at that point to be re-educated on whatever you want to do when you have 6+ years in, why would you stay?

We are literally incentivizing releases, which might be the whole plan.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I think it will lead to more releases. Long term even the move to the 25 year pension had a effect on retention. This is just another blow to the dead cow as at the 8-12 year point when your starting to get sick of it and realize you still have 12+ years left for a pension now your going to receive less and less take home.

Some postings will also be basically a life changing event where your potential take home will drastically differ depending on where your going and the expense of living there. Add in the 40-80k your eligible for at that point to be re-educated on whatever you want to do when you have 6+ years in, why would you stay?

We are literally incentivizing releases, which might be the whole plan

I think this is part the CAF running headlong into the brick wall that is generational employment change.

The "Mailroom to CEO" track has been long dead in private industry for decades and has been dying off in the PS as well, just at a slower rate; we can't keep assuming we're immune to that.

If we have a person for 5-10 years, we need to make it count; both to the institution and to the member. That means making sure that we don't withhold training or experience for "when you're older." It also means we may have to rapidly promote by comparison. If we can expect people to drop off after MCpl/Major, provide more incentive levels at that rank. If we want to keep treating folks like children at the Cpl/Capt level, in spite of age or seniority, ofcourse they're taking that experience out the door with them.

The PLD/CFHD change is part of that shift I think. If we are expecting the churn regardless, that was a rather large calf to cull.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I think the pay differences now will really be a hard sell for people that really like the S1 type work to jump through the hoops for promotions. For some trades that was an issue even before this, so will be interesting to see how many MarTechs stop at S1/MS level where they still turn wrenches, and don't want to do the Cert 2/3/4 packages, which are a huge amount of work and responsibility. I'm sure there are a lot of other trades in the same boat.

On the officer side, the Maj/LCdr ranks is a pretty sweet spot for doing trade related work with a solid pay, so similarly curious how many people will hard stop there voluntarily. It can be hard to tell though as it's easy to do it artificially by not having an valid language profile, as that doesn't risk punishment postings for opting out.

The fact that punishment postings are a real unofficial CAF thing speak volumes about “career management” in the CAF…

 

[rmc_wannabe]

The fact that punishment postings are a real unofficial CAF thing speak volumes about “career management” in the CAF…

Position Management is the closest thing I can think of.

The RCCS had a really bad habit of fucking people about when there was any form of push back against a posting for any reason (legitimate or otherwise). The "because I said so" mentality with some CMs led to a slew of OTs, Releases, and bitter pissed off people telling everyone and their dog to avoid us like the plague.

Now that our PML is in the Black, a lot more care has gone into making sure people are looked after as much as reasonably possible.

That barn door closing sure doesn't help all the horses that are long gone because it was left open.

 

[Navy_Pete]

The fact that punishment postings are a real unofficial CAF thing speak volumes about “career management” in the CAF…

Yeah, and not from the actual CM, but from the 'fairy godfathers'. It's sad how many people have so little faith in senior folks in their trade.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Yeah, and not from the actual CM, but from the 'fairy godfathers'. It's sad how many people have so little faith in senior folks in their trade.

Because a lot of our senior leadership have stopped being stewards of our respective groups and their membership, but have turned it into nepotism, cronyism, and empire building.

There are few people I can think of in my own organization who are looking out for the good of the Corps. Sadly a lot of them are walking.

 

[FSTO]

If you are now drawing Res F pay and were previously Reg F, there may be an EMAA issue with getting pay statements from both RPSR and CCPS on the same payrun.

I released from the RF last year and there has been zero issues going from the reg forces pay system to RPSR. (So far )

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

This is the part of this policy that makes no sense to me. Updating things after 20 years was sure to leave some people short and some people properly attended to after 20 years of being shorted, there was no getting around it and that occurred. But tying it to home ownership? Why should someone get paid less for doing the same job in the same market based on their personal wealth or assets?

Cutting out a bit of a monologue here about what I've learned about promotions, pay, performance, salary negotations, etc. in the private sector by stating that the market determines your pay and you should never bring your personal circumstances into it. You being broke is not a good reason to give you a raise. You not having x,y,z, is not relevant to your value in the labour market. I can't imagine asking my employer for money "because I don't own a house yet." And, being the older guy that switched careers, most of my peers don't have a house and I do, and the idea that my employer would cut my pay to make up for that and maybe say to me "you don't need as much compensation as your peers, you already have a house" is just preposterous.

Omg man you're speaking to the choir here. The compensation and benefits aspect of this makes zero sense to me.

I personally think the policy is hot socialist garbage but the amount of CAF members that seem to think it's great makes me think the IO campaign undertaken to market it as a win was very successful.

Other recently released personnel I know have reported having received a pay statement from the government for this.. . I have not... Hope this doesn't mean my back pay will be delayed!

I haven't gotten one and I don't feel like calling anyone to find out. I guess I'll get it when I get it

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I think this CFHD/PLD is a fine manifestation of our governments (and I'll rope in DND as well) planning tactically for the election cycle, but fucking up the longer term strategic outlook.

1990- Cold War ends (or...as we now know....pauses). No need to have a Bde in Germany. Units are folded into existing formations. Peace dividend is looking good.

Early 90s- Post Soviet PSO missions are the new way forward, we don't need to replace our Peer-Near Peer capability. Divest the rest.

1994 White Paper - Cuts Cuts Cuts. Gotta balance that budget. FRP now has some of our best and brightest walking. No need to house these troops that don't exist. Close bases, sell off land, demolish PMQs without rebuilding new ones. Stand up a housing authority to manage what's left and charge market rates because "fair"

1995- 10 Sept 2001 - They're complaining about pay and conditions.... um... meager increases, but let's not go crazy here.

11 Sept 2001 - Shit.

12 Sept 2001 - 2008 - We are going to need a lot more people to bring us up to strength for Afghanistan. Where are we going to put them all......oh crap we sold that off didn't we..... um.... throw money at it.

2008 - PLD solves all our problems.

2014 -Afghanistan ends. Time for a breathe-....oh crap there 2 other missions now. Why aren't these people leaving? Why are we still paying out the nose for PLD? Right, we didn't build new housing.

2017-2020- Housing costs rise exponentially in Canada, causing one of the worst housing markets in the G7. PLD has been untouched for over a decade. They're getting complainy again...

Feb 2020 - And now everything gets messy because of pandemic. Costs sore because of supply chain issues, inflation, greedflation, and so on. Wages and PLD remain. People are walking now, even though it looks like Latvia is becoming another Lahr in the near future... and now there is bad press.

24 Feb 2022 - Shit.

2022- 2023 - We're short 16-20,000 people! How are we going to sustain this? NATO is asking for more that we can give and we're losing face with our international partners. Why are troops leaving? Cost of Living... again? OK...well...here's some money. Not all the money you need to have both PLD and a wage increase so, figure it out. Also, we're not building new infrastructure.

15 Jul 2023 - Why are there so many releases? We just gave a pay raise!

Political, tactical decisions for short term gains have brought us to where we are. It won't be another political, tactical, decision that will get us out of it.

We need strategic vision on infrastructure, personnel management, and employment. Instead, we throw good money after bad on band-aid solutions that stop the bleeding for a bit, but only for a minute.

 

[Quirky]

We're short 16-20,000 people!

I’d like to know what happens to the $billions allocated for salaries, benefits and training that’s not used for those empty positions.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I’d like to know what happens to the $billions allocated for salaries, benefits and training that’s not used for those empty positions.

Ahhh yes, you've uncovered the shell game that is Govt Spending!

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I’d like to know what happens to the $billions allocated for salaries, benefits and training that’s not used for those empty positions.

@CountDC can correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always told Reg F salaries weren't a budget line item, but more of a "as needed, will generate" item in the overall GoC operating budget. Therefore, if it's not being drawn upon, it's just staying in general ccoffers. Those empty positions and salaries is money not being spent, but not reallocate elsewhere in the DND budget because the money doesn't exist without someone filling the position.

 

[dimsum]

Yeah, and not from the actual CM, but from the 'fairy godfathers'. It's sad how many people have so little faith in senior folks in their trade.

There has to be a COA 3 that isn’t either completely personality-based (like now) or automated “number 12345 gets posted to position 56789 because they happen to come through at this time”.

People hate being treated like a number, but then people also hate knowing that (some) people aren’t being treated like numbers.

 

[Booter]

@CountDC can correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always told Reg F salaries weren't a budget line item, but more of a "as needed, will generate" item in the overall GoC operating budget. Therefore, if it's not being drawn upon, it's just staying in general ccoffers. Those empty positions and salaries is money not being spent, but not reallocate elsewhere in the DND budget because the money doesn't exist without someone filling the position.

This is very close to how I’ve seen some other stuff in government accounting so it seems correct

 

[dapaterson]

@CountDC can correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always told Reg F salaries weren't a budget line item, but more of a "as needed, will generate" item in the overall GoC operating budget. Therefore, if it's not being drawn upon, it's just staying in general ccoffers. Those empty positions and salaries is money not being spent, but not reallocate elsewhere in the DND budget because the money doesn't exist without someone filling the position.

Nope. C103 (Reg F vote 1 pay) is a budget item, and, if in surplus, can be converted in year for other uses.

 

[CountDC]

My understanding is that It's part of the overall budget and could be converted but as we are always way under spending I don't see the gods in Ottawa going through that effort . Only time I have seen converting pay over was with a reserve unit's pay for a special expenditure and that had to go to Ottawa (think CA but not sure) for approval.