Army Reserve Restructuring

[KevinB]

It all starts with better leadership.

Everywhere...

Word of mouth is a recruiting tool -- for better or worse.
When a unit has poor leadership, no training plan, and either no equipment or obsolete equipment, troop just dont vote with their feet, they all tell friends and family to avoid XXXX like the plague.

When thing are going well, they do the same.

 

[Kirkhill]

World War 1?

Sam Hughes?

 

[Kirkhill]

I've seen those things cycle from successful to very poor - it depends very much on support and leadership. In any event its a hard job administratively to support. Portage La Prairie has a population of 13,000 and 13 Bty (which has a long distinguished history) has always struggled to put more than a dozen folks in the field. And they are the only game in town. In the 2022 Canadian Gunner 10th Fd Regt from Regina (with a battery in Saskatoon), 26th Fd Regt from Brandon (which includes Portage and where the arty is the only game in town as well) and 116 Ind Fd Bty in Kenora numbered 119 all ranks (That's not just actively parading; its 119 total counting everybody). Five batteries do not have enough people to even man one full battery. Brandon has 40,000 folks but is a catchment area for 250,000. Regina has 225,000 and around another 50,000 in the area (leaving aside Moose Jaw and Saskatoon which are nearby and constitute another 350,000+)

It goes beyond the guns though. SK, MB, and NW ON which includes Thunder Bay has a population of around 2.7 million mostly in a line along the Trans Canada and Yellowhead highways. 38 Bde which covers that area has a total of a mere 1,200 all ranks. You'd think it could be a lot stronger based on its mix of urban and rural communities.

I'm really of mixed minds on this issue. IMHO these rural areas should be doing much better. There's enough of a population base to support more. I'm really guessing here but I have to believe its the poor resourcing and marginal training. I'm not sure if the model I keep touting is the answer. Essentially my model would turn the five battery 38th Arty Tac Group into two batteries and a troop which would serve combined with a RegF gun battery and an FOO battery out of Shilo consolidated under a RegF CO and training on the RegF equipment (plus all the other recommended prerequisites for the reserves). I can't help but things would get better. It couldn't really get worse.

Canada needs better incentives for recruiting and retention.

The highlighted bit goes to my point about "expectations".

To get 1 person into the field out of 1000 people on an ongoing basis is no mean feat.

If that were to apply across Canada that would mean putting 40,000 people into camps every summer. It would also mean, assuming people did four years of such summer camp service, that after 20 years there would be a cadre of some 200,000 people in the 20 to 40 age bracket with some military training and a demonstrated willingness to make themselves useful to the government.

In Switzerland the military age is 18 to 30.
In Finland it is 18 to 60
In Sweden it is 18 to 70.

At 70 your service may consist of riding a desk in a power plant with a pistol in a drawer.

 

[KevinB]

The highlighted bit goes to my point about "expectations".

To get 1 person into the field out of 1000 people on an ongoing basis is no mean feat.

If that were to apply across Canada that would mean putting 40,000 people into camps every summer. It would also mean, assuming people did four years of such summer camp service, that after 20 years there would be a cadre of some 200,000 people in the 20 to 40 age bracket with some military training and a demonstrated willingness to make themselves useful to the government.

In Switzerland the military age is 18 to 30.
In Finland it is 18 to 60
In Sweden it is 18 to 70.

At 70 your service may consist of riding a desk in a power plant with a pistol in a drawer.

Heinlein had it right.
Service equals citizenship

 

[Brad Sallows]

There must be a population threshold for sustaining a reasonable presence, and I'd guess that threshold has increased with time as disinterest in part-time military service increases. There was a "B" company of RM Rang in Salmon Arm when I started; I gather it was folded quite a while back. (Hard to justify keeping a building going for a platoon-minus.) Population there must be around 15K.

 

[Kirkhill]

There must be a population threshold for sustaining a reasonable presence, and I'd guess that threshold has increased with time as disinterest in part-time military service increases. There was a "B" company of RM Rang in Salmon Arm when I started; I gather it was folded quite a while back. (Hard to justify keeping a building going for a platoon-minus.) Population there must be around 15K.

1 CRPG manages 2000 Rangers in 61 patrols and 1400 Junior Rangers in another 44 patrols spread over 65 communities.

2000/61 = 32
1400/44 = 32

So 105 "platoons" of 32 spread over 65 communities where many of the communities are less than 1000 souls.

Patrols of the 1st Canadian Ranger Patrol Group​

The 1st Canadian Ranger Patrol Group (1 CRPG) is responsible for Nunavut Territory, Yukon Territory, Northwest Territories, and Atlin, British Columbia, which accounts for about 40 percent of Canada's land mass. 1 CRPG has an establishment of 2000 Canadian Rangers in 61 patrols and more than 1,400 Junior Canadian Rangers (JCRs) in 44 patrols located in 65 communities across the north. The headquarters is located in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories and reports to 3rd Canadian Division. Canadian Rangers are part time members that are paid when on duty and also receive Equipment Usage Rate for vehicles and equipment they use when participating in approved activities.

The patrols of the 1st Canadian Ranger Patrol Group are located throughout the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, Nunavut and Atlin, B.C.
Canadian Rangers from these patrols volunteer to participate in tasks including presence patrols, northern and domestic operations and monitor the North Warning System.

When not assisting with operations, Canadian Rangers from the 1st Canadian Ranger Patrol Group regularly train in activities such as first aid, wilderness skills, ground search and rescue, leadership, navigation, weapon safety and special training as required.

The Aklavik Patrol
The Arctic Bay Patrol
The Arviat Patrol
The Atlin Patrol
The Baker Lake Patrol
The Beaver Creek Patrol
The Behchokǫ̀ Patrol
The Cambridge Bay Patrol
The Kinngait (Cape Dorset) Patrol
The Carcross Patrol
The Carmacks Patrol
The Chesterfield Inlet Patrol
The Clyde River Patrol
The Coral Harbour Patrol
The Dawson City Patrol
The Deline Patrol
The Faro Patrol
The Fort Good Hope Patrol
The Fort McPherson Patrol
The Fort Providence Patrol
The Fort Resolution Patrol
The Fort Simpson Patrol
The Fort Smith Patrol
The Gameti Patrol
The Gjoa Haven Patrol
The Grise Fiord Patrol
The Haines Junction Patrol
The Sanirajak (Hall Beach) Patrol
The Hay River Patrol
The Igloolik Patrol
The Inuvik Patrol
The Iqaluit Patrol
The Kimmirut Patrol
The Kugaaruk Patrol
The Kugluktuk Patrol
The Lutsel K’e Patrol
The Mayo Patrol
The Old Crow Patrol
The Pangnirtung Patrol
The Paulatuk Patrol
The Pelly Crossing Patrol
The Pond Inlet Patrol
The Qikiqtarjuaq Patrol
The Rankin Inlet Patrol
The Naujaat (Repulse Bay) Patrol
The Resolute Bay Patrol
The Ross River Patrol
The Sachs Harbour Patrol
The Sanikiluaq Patrol
The Taloyoak Patrol
The Sambaa K’e Patrol
The Tsiigehtchic Patrol
The Tuktoyaktuk Patrol
The Tulita Patrol
The Ulukhaktok Patrol
The Watson Lake Patrol
The Wekweti Patrol
The Wha tì Patrol
The Whale Cove Patrol
The Wiiliideh Patrol
The Whitehorse Patrol

​

1st Canadian Ranger Patrol Group - Canada.ca

1 Canadian Ranger Patrol Group is headquartered in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories and is responsible Nunavut, Yukon, Northwest Territories, and Northern British Colombia.

www.canada.ca

Patrols of the 1st Canadian Ranger Patrol Group - Canada.ca

A complete listing of Canadian Ranger patrols in Nunavut, Northwest Territories, Yukon and Northern British Columbia (1 Canadian Ranger Patrol Group)

www.canada.ca

 

[Brad Sallows]

1 CRPG manages 2000 Rangers in 61 patrols and 1400 Junior Rangers in another 44 patrols spread over 65 communities.

And do they resemble soldiers more or less than the Militia, and by how much? Are the demands made on each of them more or less than the typical class A reservist, and by how much?

 

[Kirkhill]

And do they resemble soldiers more or less than the Militia, and by how much? Are the demands made on each of them more or less than the typical class A reservist, and by how much?

Good questions which boil down to managing expectations

 

[daftandbarmy]

1 CRPG manages 2000 Rangers in 61 patrols and 1400 Junior Rangers in another 44 patrols spread over 65 communities.

2000/61 = 32
1400/44 = 32

So 105 "platoons" of 32 spread over 65 communities where many of the communities are less than 1000 souls.

​

1st Canadian Ranger Patrol Group - Canada.ca

1 Canadian Ranger Patrol Group is headquartered in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories and is responsible Nunavut, Yukon, Northwest Territories, and Northern British Colombia.

www.canada.ca

Patrols of the 1st Canadian Ranger Patrol Group - Canada.ca

A complete listing of Canadian Ranger patrols in Nunavut, Northwest Territories, Yukon and Northern British Columbia (1 Canadian Ranger Patrol Group)

www.canada.ca

Chalk and cheese mate, but nice try...

Rangers already have most of the skills the CAF require for them to do the jobs they do, their military training is relatively limited as a result.

Meanwhile, on the opposite end of the spectrum, is a teenaged rifleman in the ARes.

 

[Kirkhill]

And do they resemble soldiers more or less than the Militia, and by how much? Are the demands made on each of them more or less than the typical class A reservist, and by how much?

You got me thinking again.

1 CRPG territory

Nunavut - 37,000
Northwest Territories - 46,000
Yukon - 45,000

Total Population - 128,000

Rangers - 2,000

Participation Rate 1:64

Extrapolate to Canada's 40,000,000

625,000 Canadians enrolled voluntarily

Add in the Portage la Prairie experience of 1:1000 volunteering for camp every summer


40,000,000 Canadians
625,000 Rangers Permanently
40,000 Militia Annually

 

[Kirkhill]

Chalk and cheese mate, but nice try...

Rangers already have most of the skills the CAF require for them to do the jobs they do, their military training is relatively limited as a result.

Meanwhile, on the opposite end of the spectrum, is a teenaged rifleman in the ARes.

Not getting it.

I am not expecting everybody to be a Reserve Soldier.
I am expecting a body of willing Canadians from which we might find a subset willing and able to invest the time and effort to become a Reserve Soldier.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Not getting it.

I am not expecting everybody to be a Reserve Soldier.
I am expecting a body of willing Canadians from which we might find a subset willing and able to invest the time and effort to become a Reserve Soldier.

That's a HR focused research and marketing problem, not a location, kit or accommodation problem.

How many people in the CAF know anything about HR focused research and marketing? Anyone?

 

[dapaterson]

There are some excellent HR researchers working in DND (with some CAF members embedded in the organization). The real question is whether or not senior leadership pays any attention to the research.

 

[quadrapiper]

Seems there might be value in looking at every small town that once maintained a platoon presence, and considering reestablishment.

I've seen complaints on here about weeknight training not being worth the effort for the Reservist: when the armoury is a two-hour round trip over mountain roads (snow optional, rain and fog guaranteed) in the dark both ways, requires fighting through a 1500-1900 traffic anthill, is in a different town from the one you work and live in, or otherwise gratingly inconvenient, no wonder people don't show up.

Maybe stop thinking battalion armoury as the "basic" reserve building block: instead, platoon (etc.) halls spread all over the place. Keep the armoury, but get facilities for weekly training where people actually live, close enough that popping in once a week for classroom work isn't an imposition.

That's a HR focused research and marketing problem, not a location, kit or accommodation problem.

How many people in the CAF know anything about HR focused research and marketing? Anyone?

Bet there's a few in the Reserves, happily not doing their day job while in uniform.

 

[Kirkhill]

That's a HR focused research and marketing problem, not a location, kit or accommodation problem.

How many people in the CAF know anything about HR focused research and marketing? Anyone?

I guess it is kind of like fishing, seining in particular. You find your school of 40,000,000. You set your net and corral 625,000 and haul them in. You can then search the catch and high grade it for the best 40,000 for the Japanese market.

At that point the analogy fails because rather than having to go out and make another set, hunting, you can turn to farming and have the 625,000 deliver a steady supply of 40,000 every year.

 

[brihard]

1:56 nails NDHQ. It's what I hear every time someone suggests a new working group...

Hah, I don’t even need to watch the video to know it. “The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy”, in the voice of Leonard Nimoy. I’ve been on a Civ IV kick again lately.

 

[KevinB]

I guess it is kind of like fishing, seining in particular. You find your school of 40,000,000. You set your net and corral 625,000 and haul them in. You can then search the catch and high grade it for the best 40,000 for the Japanese market.

At that point the analogy fails because rather than having to go out and make another set, hunting, you can turn to farming and have the 625,000 deliver a steady supply of 40,000 every year.

My argument would be that Canada needs different tiers of Reserves.

Active Reserves: Class B and C

Ready Reserves: Class A members in a conventional unit - weekend and summer concentration requirements apply


Inactive Reserves: Members who have concluded their Reg or Reserve training, who don’t want to or can’t commit to the 8 weekend and 3 week summer concentration, but wish to remain as part of the CAF, who will attend 5 weekends a year for refresher training (rifle ranges, first aid, etc). One can organize them along the same idea as the RPGs.

 

[Kirkhill]

My argument would be that Canada needs different tiers of Reserves.

Active Reserves: Class B and C

Ready Reserves: Class A members in a conventional unit - weekend and summer concentration requirements apply


Inactive Reserves: Members who have concluded their Reg or Reserve training, who don’t want to or can’t commit to the 8 weekend and 3 week summer concentration, but wish to remain as part of the CAF, who will attend 5 weekends a year for refresher training (rifle ranges, first aid, etc). One can organize them along the same idea as the RPGs.

Works for me.

 

[FJAG]

Heinlein had it right.
Service equals citizenship

It's not only the concept that I like but his notion that we've tried all the other possible options and they all sucked.

I first started reading Heinlein, Clarke and Asimov when I was thirteen. I'm of the view that unless you've read science fiction widely you don't have enough data to think critically about possible social structures. There may be too much crap SciFi on the market these days (think L Ron Hubert and the like) but the Big Three, provided a good base to develop analytical thinking.

On the other hand can you really conceive of a government run by a collective of the members of this forum?

 

[daftandbarmy]

On the other hand can you really conceive of a government run by a collective of the members of this forum?

Yes, yes I can - sadly