- Reaction score
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And trial starts today;
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/vice-admiral-haydn-edmundon-sex-assault-trial-1.7103198
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/vice-admiral-haydn-edmundon-sex-assault-trial-1.7103198
Interesting.
Retired vice-admiral Edmundson denies sexual assault, exposing himself to woman, court hears
Crown set to cross-examine Edmundson on Tuesday
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Mark Gollom · CBC News · Posted: Feb 11, 2024 3:04 PM EST | Last Updated: 10 minutes ago
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Retired vice-admiral Haydn Edmundson denied in an Ottawa courtroom that he sexually assaulted or exposed himself to a woman who claims he attacked her while on deployment on a naval ship more than 30 years ago. (Sean Kilpatrick/The Canadian Press)
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WARNING: This story contains details of an alleged sexual assault.
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Retired vice-admiral Haydn Edmundson denied in an Ottawa courtroom on Monday that he sexually assaulted or exposed himself to a woman who claims he attacked her while on deployment on a naval ship more than 30 years ago.
"The early evening of Nov. 8, 1991, did you kiss, embrace or engage in any sexual contact with [the complainant]?" his lawyer, Brian Greenspan, asked.
"No, I did not," Edmundson said.
He also denied he came into any physical or sexual contact with the complainant on that date or that she had been alone with him in his cabin.
Earlier on Monday, Edmundson, who is trial for sexual assault and committing indecent acts, also denied he had ever exposed himself to the woman or anyone who was assigned to wake him up for his duties as night watch.
His testimony — the first time court has heard from him since the trial began a week ago — countered statements made by the woman, who has accused him of attacking her in November 1991. She previously told court that Edmundson exposed himself to her when she went to awaken him as part of her duties.
The woman, whose name is protected under a publication ban, testified that this incident had happened just a couple of days before he allegedly sexually assaulted her and was part of a progressive behaviour in which he had exposed parts of his body to her on other occasions of being awakened.
Edmundson, 60, was charged in December 2021, with one count of sexual assault and one count of committing indecent acts. He has pleaded not guilty and denied any wrongdoing. Edmundson has since resigned as head of military personnel command.
- Lawyer for retired vice-admiral Edmundson challenges woman's claim he exposed himself, sex assault trial hears
- Woman told friend she slept with 'a senior officer,' trial of retired vice-admiral Edmundson hears
He has also retired from the Canadian Armed Forces, something he was directed to do in February 2022, following being charged in this case, he told the court on Monday. He said he is currently unemployed.
On Monday, he was asked by Greenspan if he had any recollection of "having been exposed" to those who would have been assigned to wake him up for his night watch duty.
"I do not," Edmundson said.
"Did you progressively expose yourself to [the complainant]?" Greenspan asked.
"No, I did not."
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Edmundson, seated on the far right beside his lawyers, is shown in an Ottawa courtroom last week as the woman who claims he sexually assaulted her testifies in the witness box. (Lauren Foster-MacLeod/CBC)
Edmundson also testified he didn't recall the complainant ever coming into his cabin to wake him up and that he didn't have a bunkmate on the date at which she alleges she had her outburst.
Edmundson is being tried in the Ontario Court of Justice by a judge alone. Court has heard that the alleged assault took place on a ship as it was docked at a U.S. navy base on Nov. 8, 1991. At the time of the alleged assault, Edmundson was lieutenant-commander, the navigator of the ship.
Claims Edmundson exposed himself
Last week, the woman told court that her duties aboard the ship included waking up officers, including Edmundson, for their night shift. She testified that on one particular mission, some of Edmundson's body parts would be exposed when she would go to wake him.
She said in one instance, a couple of days before the alleged sexual assault, she'd had an outburst when she went to wake Edmundson for his night shift and found him lying in the bed naked. The woman said she lost her composure, yelled and turned on the lights, in part to wake up Edmundson's bunkmate so he could witness the behaviour she had to deal with.
On Monday, Greenspan asked Edmundson if any of that occurred.
"No that did not happen," he said.
Edmundson told court that he had reviewed the captain's night order book, in which officers record their initials when they would go on night watch.
He said that according to the book, he wasn't on night watch duty on the night that the complainant says she had her outburst. He said that during that particular deployment, the last time he'd been on night watch was Oct. 31.
Edmundson also told court that he never slept naked and always wore undershorts and a shirt.
Court hears graphic details of alleged assault
Last week, court heard graphic details from the woman about the alleged assault.
She testified that on the evening of the alleged assault, the door to Edmundson's quarters was ajar as she passed by and she heard him shout for her to come speak with him.
She told the court that while in his cabin, she froze and feared for her life as Edmundson approached her, kissed her, unbuttoned her shirt and bra, pulled down her shorts and underwear and kissed her vagina.
She told the court that Edmundson then grabbed her by the hips, turned her around and "proceeded raping me."
The Crown is set to cross-examine Edmundson on Tuesday.
I was on that ship for that deployment. His shakes wouldn't have been in the Night Order's book though - they would be in the Shake Book. The Night Orders book would have had a spot for the oncoming OOW to sign, and I assume he means he didn't see his signature in it for the night watches in question. Perhaps the CO still has his Night Order's books and allowed him to review them?? I suppose that could be done without entering them into evidence?? Dunno. shrugAnd some updates;
Anyone know where the Captain's night order book from 1991 might still be kicking around? that seems like a stretch. I thought the OOW notebook (Ship's Log?) gets archived but usually the Captain's NOB was in a leatherbound book that I thought the CO's kept. You would think if that's part of the testimony it would be entered into evidence but who knows what happened and got left out of the reporting.
No tanker time, but usually the NavO wasn't on the watch rotation regularly, but would still be on the bridge all the time, especially prior to big evolutions, during particular transits, and also to help train new BWKs, so kind of a dubious point to raise as a 'gotcha' Macguyver moment.
Also back when there was a night steward, anyone could put in for a shake, but really stopped being used as generally gets done departmentally to wake up the reliefs.
For the army guys, basically you get a list of 'shakes' for the oncoming replacements, and usually with a note of when (1 hr before watch, 30 mins etc) and one or two juniour folks take 5 minutes to go around and wake people up. It sounds archaic but made sense before everyone had a phone in their pocket, and even now that way you aren't waking everyone up with your stupid alarm (or sleeping through it). Makes sense, especially when you are bunking with 51 friends, but not sure what the equivalent is called for when someone is taking over picket duty or something.
Aside from coming on watch, you also have shakes in for things like if you have to close up for a RAS, close manuevering, force protection, flying stations whatever, as well as for some scheduled training. (As a side note, QoL for the MSE department of scheduling drill periods during the normal workday just after meal times was huge; getting shook at 0500 to get ready for 0600 drills got old when usually was up until 0000 and shook a few times for equipment failures IAW the MSE NOB).
There is a map on the door showing which rack someone is sleeping in, so it's pretty straightforward as long as the map is up to date (and you don't have 3 or 4 people with the same last name).
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/haydn-edmundson-sexual-assault-trial-1.7110920
Got it. In the Infantry we have similar things but not as formal as the Navy.For the army guys, basically you get a list of 'shakes' for the oncoming replacements, and usually with a note of when (1 hr before watch, 30 mins etc) and one or two juniour folks take 5 minutes to go around and wake people up. It sounds archaic but made sense before everyone had a phone in their pocket, and even now that way you aren't waking everyone up with your stupid alarm (or sleeping through it). Makes sense, especially when you are bunking with 51 friends, but not sure what the equivalent is called for when someone is taking over picket duty or something.
For the army guys, basically you get a list of 'shakes' for the oncoming replacements, and usually with a note of when (1 hr before watch, 30 mins etc) and one or two juniour folks take 5 minutes to go around and wake people up. It sounds archaic but made sense before everyone had a phone in their pocket, and even now that way you aren't waking everyone up with your stupid alarm (or sleeping through it). Makes sense, especially when you are bunking with 51 friends, but not sure what the equivalent is called for when someone is taking over picket duty or something.
You just put that into ChatGPT, didn’t you.Again, for the Army guys, 'shakes' does not refer to delirium tremens resulting from the over consumption of Pusser's Rum, but 'waking up the next person on fire watch' - usually by shaking them. I think.
If you need anything else, I'll be spinning dits by the scuttlebutt with the Dog Watch while waiting in line for scran with my yaffling spanners before I thin out to my grot ...
You just put that into ChatGPT, didn’t you.
That's what I thought, I usually signed the night orders as EO with the other HODs (which I think the NavO generally drafted for the CO who usually wrote it out in fountain pen). There was also the daily departmental rounds in the Ships logs, departmental night orders and one or two others so they blend together. My mind blanked a bit for 'Watch on Deck' but I think that's where it was useful to have 2nd and 3rd OOWs as trainees (or 4th and 5th when you had some NTOs doing their phase 4 OJT)I was on that ship for that deployment. His shakes wouldn't have been in the Night Order's book though - they would be in the Shake Book. The Night Orders book would have had a spot for the oncoming OOW to sign, and I assume he means he didn't see his signature in it for the night watches in question. Perhaps the CO still has his Night Order's books and allowed him to review them?? I suppose that could be done without entering them into evidence?? Dunno. shrug
I know that I still have all omine Night Order's books - they are a great history of exactly where the ship was, what it was doing, and where it was going, each night at sea. Ill be passing mine on to my nephews when I die. So I wouldn't be surprised is Capt Foldesi still has his.
Departmental shakes are a thing for sure, but when it comes to BWKs - there is no Department to shake you since the OOW can't leave the bridge. Someone from the Watch-On-Deck always shook the oncoming OOW in all of my ships.
lol, understood that until 'yaffling spanners'. 'Fire watch' was what I thought it was, but kept second guessing myself as that sounds more like a national park ranger job.Again, for the Army guys, 'shakes' does not refer to delirium tremens resulting from the over consumption of Pusser's Rum, but 'waking up the next person on fire watch' - usually by shaking them. I think.
If you need anything else, I'll be spinning dits by the scuttlebutt with the Dog Watch while waiting in line for scran with my yaffling spanners before I thin out to my grot ...
No duff…no kye…pffffftAgain, for the Army guys, 'shakes' does not refer to delirium tremens resulting from the over consumption of Pusser's Rum, but 'waking up the next person on fire watch' - usually by shaking them. I think.
If you need anything else, I'll be spinning dits by the scuttlebutt with the Dog Watch while waiting in line for scran with my yaffling spanners before I thin out to my grot ...
Yeah, on that trip in PRO, the WOD was 1-in-4, * and there was a Spare Hand of the Watch on every watch. I did shakes when I was on spare, as long as it wasn't the Mids and we were dumping gash over the side in open ocean. In that case, I was undoubtedly at the bottom of the giant wet gash dumpster, hauling bags up to whoever was on deckThat's what I thought, I usually signed the night orders as EO with the other HODs (which I think the NavO generally drafted for the CO who usually wrote it out in fountain pen). There was also the daily departmental rounds in the Ships logs, departmental night orders and one or two others so they blend together. My mind blanked a bit for 'Watch on Deck' but I think that's where it was useful to have 2nd and 3rd OOWs as trainees (or 4th and 5th when you had some NTOs doing their phase 4 OJT)
That must be a really great souvenir to flip back through, and I always liked the tooled leather covers, and goign to give it a go at making one. Sometimes nice just to spend a while on something and have a physical result at the end.
"Dead Men Sleep Aft" is specially designed FOR shakes, at least back in Nelsonian times. Its why - at least in every ship I've ever been in - all the bunks are oriented with the bunklight, and thus the head, pointing forward. So you know where a dude's feet are, and ideally shake (or poke with a broom) there...because yes, dudes waking up swinging is a thing for sure...But yeah, usually try whispering their name first, then reaching in to actually shake them. Usually only a single red light in the mess, so dark anyway, and basically pitch black in the racks, so usually used a covered flashlight to make sure you are shaking them on the shoulder or something.
So, closer contact than hanging at the front desk of the hotel asking the duty manager to phone the room of the missing crew member?"Dead Men Sleep Aft" is specially designed FOR shakes, at least back in Nelsonian times. Its why - at least in every ship I've ever been in - all the bunks are oriented with the bunklight, and thus the head, pointing forward. So you know where a dude's feet are, and ideally shake (or poke with a broom) there...because yes, dudes waking up swinging is a thing for sure...
NWO vs Pilot enters the chat.So, closer contact than hanging at the front desk of the hotel asking the duty manager to phone the room of the missing crew member?![]()
NWOs make pilots look humble.
Yeah, that’s because pilots know they’re actually flying the plane, not running some ponzi-scheme from ego down to the dude actually making the ship go in the appropriate direction.NWOs make pilots look humble.
Yeah, that’s because pilots know they’re actually flying the plane, not running some ponzi-scheme from ego down to the dude actually making the ship go in the appropriate direction.
But yeah, usually try whispering their name first, then reaching in to actually shake them. Usually only a single red light in the mess, so dark anyway, and basically pitch black in the racks, so usually used a covered flashlight to make sure you are shaking them on the shoulder or something. There is always that one guy that can't read the map and wanders up and down the rows saying the name out loud and shining the flashlight in everyone's face too, which is why I hated getting bumped into random messes with different departments.