“ADF so bloated with star-ranked officers that its combat effectiveness is at risk” - Research paper

[dimsum]

They’re not wrong, but someone just made terminal rank.

Reddit post with article from The Australian newspaper:

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Link to research paper: https://airpower.airforce.gov.au/publications/ISBN-9781925062526

 

[OldSolduer]

You could have replaced it with Canadian

 

[Quirky]

All these staff officers and they still want ideas from the lower ranks on how to fix X issue. When they do get ideas that could make sense they completely ignore them and do something completely the opposite - i.e. PPLD.

 

[Halifax Tar]

They’re not wrong, but someone just made terminal rank.

Reddit post with article from The Australian newspaper:

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Link to research paper: https://airpower.airforce.gov.au/publications/ISBN-9781925062526

It's interesting that it compares the RAAF and Aus Army, but no mention of the RAN... Wondering what their ratio is for FOs to Sailors.

 

[Navy_Pete]

All these staff officers and they still want ideas from the lower ranks on how to fix X issue. When they do get ideas that could make sense they completely ignore them and do something completely the opposite - i.e. PPLD.

Which is hilarious in our fleets where the Fleet chief has been augmented by a Fleet MS. The whole point of the Fleet Chief was to get NCM input, which included the MS & below, but guess they wanted someone from each mess.

 

[Booter]

Which is hilarious in our fleets where the Fleet chief has been augmented by a Fleet MS. The whole point of the Fleet Chief was to get NCM input, which included the MS & below, but guess they wanted someone from each mess.

Do you find, objectively, that the RCN chiefs are well connected to the needs and concerns of the ranks? It is my observation that as time goes on this is less the case in other services

 

[Halifax Tar]

Which is hilarious in our fleets where the Fleet chief has been augmented by a Fleet MS. The whole point of the Fleet Chief was to get NCM input, which included the MS & below, but guess they wanted someone from each mess.

That should have sent shockwaves through my mess and messmates...

It's not just fleet either, there is a Command MS for the RCN too.

Do you find, objectively, that the RCN chiefs are well connected to the needs and concerns of the ranks? It is my observation that as time goes on this is less the case in other services

I think we are probably more connected than either the Army or RCAF, while at sea.

Obviously it's very individual, but I find that currently the WOs and above, pan CAF, seems to be adrift and lacking direction. We seem to be trying to blur the line between commissioned and non and have forgotten why we exist in the first place. Representation for the JRs, Technical/Tactical level experts, and Advisors.

Don't get me started on SEM or the CWO/CPO1 corps....

 

[Cloud Cover]

“It's not just fleet either, there is a Command MS for the RCN too”

Why?

 

[Furniture]

“It's not just fleet either, there is a Command MS for the RCN too”

Why?

Part of it is to develop select MS, part of it is to have senior folks interacting on a daily basis with at least one Jr. member that is invited to speak at the table.

It's easy to forget that despite wanting to represent your troops well, your rank/presence may intimidate some into not speaking. It might also inspire them to filter the truth to avoid consequences.

Just for a bit of a reality check on the CWO/CPO 1 representing the troops at the command level. A L1 CPO 1 is almost as far removed by advancement from my position/rank as a PO 1 as I am from an S3. How are they going to effectively advocate for the S3 when they haven't been at that level in decades?

 

[dimsum]

It's easy to forget that despite wanting to represent your troops well, your rank/presence may intimidate some into not speaking. It might also inspire them to filter the truth to avoid consequences.

If not their rank, then the RSM/SCWO on the side glaring.

All these staff officers and they still want ideas from the lower ranks on how to fix X issue. When they do get ideas that could make sense they completely ignore them and do something completely the opposite - i.e. PPLD.

Make sense according to who and at what level?

What seems to make sense at one (e.g. lower) level may not at another, because the lower level doesn’t know about the other factors in play.

If we’re going with the CFHD, PPLD, etc financial examples, a lot of folks were just saying to pay everyone more. Sure, but that was a non-starter with TB, even before clawing back $1B. So should the CAF have blindly gone ahead with that COA anyway and waste everyone’s time knowing the outcome?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Just for a bit of a reality check on the CWO/CPO 1 representing the troops at the command level. A L1 CPO 1 is almost as far removed by advancement from my position/rank as a PO 1 as I am from an S3. How are they going to effectively advocate for the S3 when they haven't been at that level in decades?

Here's a crazy idea... talk to your troops on a regular basis and find out what's going on like, you know, a good leader.

If you need someone 20 years younger than you, and who is paid considerably less, to sit at your elbow and tell you how to do your job then maybe you shouldn't have that job.

 

[dimsum]

It's interesting that it compares the RAAF and Aus Army, but no mention of the RAN... Wondering what their ratio is for FOs to Sailors.

Page 255 of this document:

https://www.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-10/Defence-Annual-Report-2022-23.pdf

2022-2023
Reg F: 68 Flag Officers out of 14745 total Reg F RAN personnel, 1 Flag Officer out of every 217 sailors.

Actually that Annual Report brings up another point. I tried to crunch the numbers including Res F pers, and I was getting crazy ratios like 1:120 for the RAN. I realized that his paper didn’t include Reservists, where there are a ridiculous number of GOFOs in the ADF Reserves.

 

[Furniture]

Here's a crazy idea... talk to your troops on a regular basis and find out what's going on like, you know, a good leader.

If you need someone 20 years younger than you, and who is paid considerably less, to sit at your elbow and tell you how to do your job then maybe you shouldn't have that job.

Yes... because clearly I advocated against doing that.


Or as the troops might say "Ok boomer".

 

[Quirky]

If we’re going with the CFHD, PPLD, etc financial examples, a lot of folks were just saying to pay everyone more. Sure, but that was a non-starter with TB, even before clawing back $1B. So should the CAF have blindly gone ahead with that COA anyway and waste everyone’s time knowing the outcome?

The CFHD and PPLD roll out and PR messaging for $30m in savings was a complete disaster. That’s already been discussed here anyway.

At our rate, there won’t be much of useful NCMs left in 5-10 years, the CAF will be largely a managerial force with a lot of planning and policy, but no one to actually kick doors down.

 

[dimsum]

The CFHD and PPLD roll out and PR messaging for $30m in savings was a complete disaster. That’s already been discussed here anyway.

At our rate, there won’t be much of useful NCMs left in 5-10 years, the CAF will be largely a managerial force with a lot of planning and policy, but no one to actually kick doors down.

Dragging this thread back to the Australian Defence Force, they are in the same boat with attrition rates.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Part of it is to develop select MS, part of it is to have senior folks interacting on a daily basis with at least one Jr. member that is invited to speak at the table.

It's easy to forget that despite wanting to represent your troops well, your rank/presence may intimidate some into not speaking. It might also inspire them to filter the truth to avoid consequences.

Just for a bit of a reality check on the CWO/CPO 1 representing the troops at the command level. A L1 CPO 1 is almost as far removed by advancement from my position/rank as a PO 1 as I am from an S3. How are they going to effectively advocate for the S3 when they haven't been at that level in decades?

I'm picking up what you're putting down.

Full disclosure I'm currently a CHOD on a ship. I make it a point to get up and walk around and talk to my people, once in the forenoon and again in the afternoon, at least. I try and find out how they are, what they are or are planning to do in ports, small talk, ect. As leaders we have to make the first move and show we are approachable and just people. Show them they can bring us their issues.

Also when disciplining I try to approach it like a good father. Be firm but compassionate. And listen to their situation from their point.

I find the biggest issue for my peers is priority and time management and too much tedious admin, that should be the job of an A/Hod.

 

[dimsum]

Full disclosure I'm currently a CHOD on a ship. I make it a point to get up and walk around and talk to my people, once in the forenoon and again in the afternoon, at least. I try and find out how they are, what they are or are planning to do in ports, small talk, ect. As leaders we have to make the first move and show we are approachable and just people. Show them they can bring us their issues.

That’s fair, but you’re in the same workspace (more or less) than them.

How is an L1 CWO/CPO1 supposed to do that? ”Management by walking around” works, but to the extent that you can physically do so. To them, “walking around” would mean Carling Campus or whenever they’re out on the road to bases…which means Town Halls or somehow breaking free of the planned events and just going for a jaunt. I’m sure that would cause Base/Unit CWO/CPOs to have kittens.

 

[Halifax Tar]

That’s fair, but you’re in the same workspace (more or less) than them.

How is an L1 CWO/CPO1 supposed to do that? ”Management by walking around” works, but to the extent that you can physically do so. To them, “walking around” would mean Carling Campus or whenever they’re out on the road to bases…which means Town Halls or somehow breaking free of the planned events and just going for a jaunt. I’m sure that would cause Base/Unit CWO/CPOs to have kittens.

Very different beasts you're correct.

Obviously the CAFCWO can't just stroll through the CAF every day, but the CWO/CPO1s and CPO2s below them should be at an increasing rate the lower level you go. And they need to be able to bring forward the concerns of their sailors.

I also think town halls are intimidating to people, we need to try to find more intimate settings to talk. People will be more open if they don't think 500 people are judging them.

 

[stoker dave]

I make it a point to get up and walk around and talk to my people, once in the forenoon and again in the afternoon, at least.

Well said.

As a junior MARE, I made it my mission to walk about as much as I could. At sea, that was day or night.

Thread drift: one of my best memories was sitting on the deck (floor) of the machinery control room at about 3:00 am with the on-watch stokers. There was not much going on and they had a bunch of questions about the current operation, location of the ship, where we were going, etc. My cabin mate was the OOW. I called him from the MCR and he said he had a few minutes as not much was going on operationally on the bridge. So basically I let all the stokers ask the OOW whatever question they wanted. I don't think that had ever been done before (it was at the time strictly prohibited for the stokers to contact the bridge except for operational issues and then only by the EOOW). Oddly, one of the questions was whether or not we were in the Bermuda triangle (we were enroute to Bermuda). That resulted in a long discussion about the Bermuda triangle, where it is and the associated hazards.

That was one of those rare moments where everyone opened up about what was really on their minds. It was a powerful reminder about the importance of connecting with people and communication.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I find a lot that within the CAF, especially in the Army, we are kind of bad for blurring the line at WO and up with their respective Command Team Partner.

The Tp Wo is only a 2IC when required. They're mostly in an advisory and support role, looking after the administrative and personnel side of the mission. Too often I have seen my peers use the "We" (as in, the NCO/WO and the Comd/OC/CO) when briefing their plan, vice owning a decision solely.

"The RSM and I, the Chief and I" may play well into "inclusion" of the NCOs in the decision making... but it confuses the hell out of the JRs, and in some cases, the Snr NCOs and WOs. The RSM, while holding considerable sway, holds no command authority. Neither does the SSM or Tp WO.

When we throw them under the bus with a decision made by those with Comd Authority... it creates the kind of "Animal Farm" mentality amongst the JRs that the WOs and the Officers are one and the same. That means they don't feel comfortable bringing up an issue to those senior advisors because "well you're part of the problem..." Hence the "Fleet MS" or Comd JR Advisor bullshit above.

If my WO is not getting the God honest truth from our troop, then they're not doing their job and I'm not doing mine. If I have to seek it from Cpl Bloggins, then the whole core of that Chain of Command tree is rotten and needs replanted.