09/10 Budget Impact on PRes - Unit stand-downs, Class B Freeze, and so on!

[DBF]

Ok, I'd like to know where people are getting this about us having too many people to pay?

1600 troops too many already, general says

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=2217536

1600 x $47232 (Pte(R) plus 50% for benefits) = $75.5 million.  That would explain a fair amount of the army's share (of the adjustments) of $80 million.  Just a guess.  :2c:

 

[Brad Sallows]

$80M is quite a bit short of $423M.  I sure would like to know how things got out of whack so much, so quickly, so late in the year without being addressed sooner.  Life isn't a parody of an IAs and Stoppages lecture: "budget on track, budget on track, budget on track...$423M to make up!"

 

[Baloo]

I haven't read all 30+ pages of the discussion, though I have tried to keep up.

And it has been awhile since last posting.

So bear with me. And I am not complaining (maybe...), just trying to add some thoughts that others may have already noted. My unit, like many others, have lost a significant portion of 'Class B' reservists. Again, like many others, troops who have been slated for work-up training have had their involvement overseas cancelled, due to budgetary reasons, alledgedly. Summer courses, etc., gone. We want to talk about retention, I just don't see how this is going to be possible. With a lack of funded training dates, heck, not only are we going to lose out on soldiers, but how about the inevitable skill-fade that will accompany?

As a junior leader, I honestly feel as though we are failing our soldiers. Whether it is as a result of loss of employment, pay, whatever, we are losing significantly on this deal. And I don't necessarily know how to address this, so I'm just adding to the fire without contributing, I get that.

But how do we have senior leadership at these town hall meetings, addressing legitimate concerns of soldiers losing their livelihoods with a simple "join the Regular Force," especially when component transferring can take up to and including a year in some cases, or when the battalions are full? What then? What sort of answers are we giving other than some, on this very forum, that say "well, its happened before, we should suck it up?"

 

[armyvern]

$80M is quite a bit short of $423M.  I sure would like to know how things got out of whack so much, so quickly, so late in the year without being addressed sooner.  Life isn't a parody of an IAs and Stoppages lecture: "budget on track, budget on track, budget on track...$423M to make up!"

80 mil is the "short end" of the stick. That's for the Pte(R) that were recruited ... and includes only the 1600 infantry overage. Those 1600 were recruited 'early in the year' to replace the forecasted (and the expected bell-curve of un-forecasted) realeases from those of sometimes much higher rank levels and paygrades.

With those higher-paygrade pers they were to replace not having pulled pin in the expected numbers (largely due to the recession) "the expected reduction in SWE payout" - didn't happen. They expected to pay those Pte(R)s ... they didn't expect to have to continue paying the higher rank levels those recruits were brought in to replace. Thus the dollar figure differential is actually much higher.

Pers pulling pin usually put in their release paperwork late in the year and pull pin early in the New year for tax purposes ... that didn't happen as predicted in the numbers predicted ... and no one knew that was going to occur until that expected paperwork didn't come in as it usually does every fall.

ESP is everything --- if you believe in it. Alas all one can do is work with forecasts and historical data in an attempt to predict things. This year, there's a whole lot of people that would have had to have the ESP to see a whole lot of things that all occured at once in a wide variety of areas of budget (and to have known what was going on in totally unrelated budget areas too) to have had a hope of avoiding this mess unfortunately.  :-\

I don't like the solution that was found in an attempt to solve it any more than anyone else does.

 

[Occam]

This got buried in another thread; I think it's pertinent here.  I won't post the entire contents of the article, but there's a passage which I was surprised to read:

Guillot pointed out the Defence Department has seen overall budget growth of about 50 per cent in the last seven years. The 2009-2010 budget is about $21 billion.

Those figures were noted in a report by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, done in conjunction with the Rideau Institute, which determined defence accounted for nearly 10 per cent of all federal spending. After adjusting for inflation, Canadian military spending this year was up 9.6 per cent compared to last year and is 15-per-cent higher than Canada's defence spending at the peak of the Cold War in 1952-1953, the report said.

"DND is right to say this isn't a cutback as their budget grew this year by almost a billion dollars," said Bill Robinson, the report's author.

"I'd be surprised to see this government making sharp cuts to the military."

 

[Jarnhamar]

We could start by not paying $120 for a $21 cleaning kit....just saying.

 

[armyvern]

We could start by not paying $120 for a $21 cleaning kit....just saying.

I'd absolutely agree with you on that.

Now, if we can convince the Feds & Treasury Board that the Financial Administration Act should be tossed aside (or that we should not have to abide by it) we may have a hope of saving some bucks.

However, I'm sure they'd then just counter-argue that doing such a thing would just be robbing from Peter to pay Paul though because the opponents would be convinced that no Canadian companies would then win any contracts ... thus we'd (the CF)save by buying elsewhere vice having to take an over-inflated bid cost/item, but that that another Fed dept would just then have to pay those workers from those companies their monthly pogey or welfare cheque.  :-\

 

[aesop081]

For all we know this Pte(R) may be an accountant or have more knowledge about financial management than the critic.

Utterly irrelevant. He could be the CEO of Widget &Co and still not have a clue of the issues DND has to deal with at the higher levels.

I sure as heck dont and i've been doing this for quite some time. Thankfully i got introduced to some of these issues by the division comptroller so my eyes were opened by those who know.

The point being that not one single poster here is privy to all the details that went into these decisions and thus saying that it was avoidable and that "they" fucked up" is nothing more than passing judgement based on less than all the facts.

 

[Larkvall]

Can't wait to read the next Auditor General's report on DND and the CF...
The last one was quite critical of the financial/project management in certain areas.

YES!!! Sheila Fraser!!!! Champion of justice!!!

Here is the email for the Auditor General. According to website they will phone you within 15 days if you leave a name and number in your email.

communications@oag-bvg.gc.ca

 

[CountDC]

I disagree with your assessment.  The reserves are indeed being hard done by.  I realize that this is not by some deliberate master design, but they are being hard done by never the less.

As we all know, many reservists have served in Afghanistan at this point, and now, they are thanked with having their jobs suspended and taken away.  Which has other side effects, potentially denying them of their support networks and peers.  I realize that they all have the freedom to hook up with one another outside of work, but that is not the point.  Parading weekly, and training, and interacting professionally with peers, in my humble opinion would be a necessary element for those returning home.

From another angle, we can all agree that the army relies on the reserves way too much.  Well, this is certainly no way to treat a partner that you rely on to succeed.  Granted it is not necessarily the army's fault, but at the end of the day, the amount of money that would be needed to keep reserve training going, is peanuts in the overall government budget.  The money should have been found.  The consequences of not finding that money, are simply too high a price to pay.  The government should not be allowing this to happen.

now that I agree with.

Not to knock the good samaritan effort but the government was quick enough to come up with the money and troops to help out in Haiti - they should have been able to come up with at least some of the extra cash for the military.

 

[CountDC]

$80M is quite a bit short of $423M.  I sure would like to know how things got out of whack so much, so quickly, so late in the year without being addressed sooner.  Life isn't a parody of an IAs and Stoppages lecture: "budget on track, budget on track, budget on track...$423M to make up!"

It only seems so quick because that is that part the public (and us) see.  In actual fact when you look at how Government and DND budget planning takes place it is a long process.  A general idea of a problem may have been known at the top months before it made its way through the system.  If you go MND, CDS, LFC, AREA, Brigade and add between 1 to 2 months at each level for "study, recommendations and decisions" you get a rough idea of how long things take.  We knew here that something was happening back in Apr when  told that we were not getting our budget until Jun.  Good hint that some how many failed to pick up on and continued to budget their activities based on money not received without building in a fudge factor.  As indicated by some posts, some units are doing better than others - I would wager this is because at some level someone did build in a fudge factor for them or they got lucky that the members didn't parade as much as planned.

For people looking for some one to blame for their situation - start by looking in the mirror and then carry on to every one in your chain of command right up to the PM because fault can be found at every point if you look hard enough. 

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

An unfortunate situation arose, which forced some senior personnel to make some tough decisions. No matter what choice was made to fix this situation, people somewhere would have been unhappy. I'm sorry that you're unhappy with the choice that was made. But I can't really fault the people who made those choices without knowing what the alternatives were.

I think people arent so angry at the fact that a hard choice had to be made, but more angry because they disagree with the choices made. As has been said in this thread, there are many other things people believe should have been cut, many more useless positions, than cutting peoples employment and income.

 

[vonGarvin]

I think people arent so angry at the fact that a hard choice had to be made, but more angry because they disagree with the choices made. As has been said in this thread, there are many other things people believe should have been cut , many more useless positions, than cutting peoples employment and income.

What things?  What positions?

 

[Larkvall]

For people looking for some one to blame for their situation - start by looking in the mirror and then carry on to every one in your chain of command right up to the PM because fault can be found at every point if you look hard enough.

I am waiting to hear what Ms. Fraser has to say on the matter.

 

[aesop081]

I am waiting to hear what Ms. Fraser has to say on the matter.

:crybaby:

For you and everyone else who thinks that they got the shaft because ther are reservists.

Take a long look around. Air force YFR is being cut so us Regular force aviators get to feel the pain in a big way as well.

You are not the only ones so STFU.

 

[Larkvall]

:crybaby:

For you and everyone else who thinks that they got the shaft because ther are reservists.

Take a long look around. Air force YFR is being cut so us Regular force aviators get to feel the pain in a big way as well.

You are not the only ones so STFU.

Don't worry, she will kick some ass for you too. 

 

[Remius]

You are not the only ones so STFU.

Nice.  No one is saying reservists are the only ones.  They just happen to be hit the hardest and in ways that affect them more profoundly.  For some it was their livelyhood (yes being on class b is a risk, but it still sucks to lose your job), others it's what they used to pay for school, rent etc.  Some took time off for work up training and are being told they aren't needed anymore.  Troops are planning alternative employment options as even their part time pay has vanished.  And to top it off there was no warning, nothing to say "hey, start making plans for jan-apr since we might not have funds to pay you".

Do you have any idea what cancelling BMQs midway will have on those units?  For some it will take years to recover from.  We'll be losing some good people as well.

Part of it has to do with how vague this all seems.  We're getting more money but we have to re-adjust here and there.  Could be because we have too many troops, could be because we have to buy more stuff.  Not really sure. 

So if you aren't happy with them venting, and being rightfully pissed, don't read this thread.

However, with the 320 million more in cuts on the way, I think that Army Reservists will see just how much the CF as a whole is going to end up sharing the brunt of these "readjustments".

 

[COBRA-6]

What things?  What positions?

Oh there are metric ass loads of them. The bloat I see in Ottawa is just staggering. Everyone is very very busy, but soooo much of it is not usefull work. NDHQ has become such a self-licking ice cream cone that a huge amount of time and effort is spent on the left hand trying to figure out what the right hand is doing, usually unsuccessfully.

The problem is that reforming the bureaucratic borg collective is a complex, difficult task. So many activities are interlinked/interdependant between the Lvl 1s it's hard to separate them. Trimming here and there is all that's possible without reforming the way the CF and Department as a whole does buisness. It honestly would be easier to burn NDHQ to the ground and start over.

So what happens? We take the easy route and cut things like trg, maint, fuel, and people.

Just my $0.02...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Hack the Reserves to buy combat vehicles.

Mmmmmm. Smells something like Bison. ;D

 

[Remius]

What things?  What positions?

I'm still getting the Safety Digest...