2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

[Lumber]

"Woke" is meaningless without the speaker/writer defining the term. To some, "woke" means "play along with someone else's mind games".

Except it's not. I don't know how many times we've gone over this on this side. There is an actual definition/meaning to "woke", and no reasonable person should be against that meaning.

The right co-opted the word to be a pejorative terms indicating first anything extremely progressive that was being pushed quickly and aggressively, to now being about literally anything progressive, at all.

The problem is that PP is campaigning (shut up, yes he is) to be the leader of the 9th largest economy in the world. He's suppose to be an adult, he's supposed to be professional, and he's supposed to be informed. (He actually is those things, but he's not appearing as those things). His use of woke in the pejorative creates division.

 

[Good2Golf]

The problem is that PP is campaigning (shut up, yes he is) to be the leader of the 9th largest economy in the world.

When Trudeau drops in on provinces after a CO2-spewing ride in his shiny new CC-330 Husky, without doing premiers the courtesy of a heads up, to make announcements about throwing billions of dollars at those provinces, he too is campaigning…(shut up, yes he is)

 

[Lumber]

When Trudeau drops in on provinces after a CO2-spewing ride in his shiny new CC-330 Husky, without doing premiers the courtesy of a heads up, to make announcements about throwing billions of dollars at those provinces, he too is campaigning…(shut up, yes he is)

I won't argue the JT is. I was just preparing for a smartass comment about technically campaigning doesn't begin until after the writ drops.

 

[Good2Golf]

We shouldn’t be surprised that both the LPC and CPC are de facto campaigning at this point.

 

[RangerRay]

"Woke" is meaningless without the speaker/writer defining the term. To some, "woke" means "play along with someone else's mind games".

Leftist liberal “anti-woke” professor calls it “identity synthesis”.

The Identity Trap by Yascha Mounk: 9780593493182 | PenguinRandomHouse.com: Books

Named a Best Book of the Year by The Economist, Financial Times, Inc., Prospect Magazine, and The Conversation “The most comprehensive and reasonable story of this shift that has yet been attempted...

www.penguinrandomhouse.com

Coleman Hughes refers to it as “neo-racism”.

https://www.amazon.com/End-Race-Politics-Arguments-Colorblind/dp/0593332458?nodl=1&dplnkId=7066d663-48db-4aad-bc95-1501da1bedd9

 

[Halifax Tar]

Poilievre interviews with Comox Valley Record during tour in Courtenay

Conservative leader Pierre Poilievre offers short one-on-one interview Friday morning

www.comoxvalleyrecord.com

He’s engaging with the media, which is good.

However, I wonder what he means when he says “no more woke” but then say “treat our citizens with respect”. Because as a visible minority citizen, those two statements seem at odds.

I also dislike the “warrior” (as opposed to soldier) term for the military, same with “warfighter”, but that’s a different rant.

He also says he’ll fix the budget, and since DND is the largest line number in the federal budget, I see a crosshairs at us - again, seemingly at odds with another statement he makes.

Finally, can the federal govt order a municipality to make X% of housing? Granted I haven’t really followed the LPC’s housing announcement recently aside from money involved with strings, but isn’t this also the same (or very similar) proposal?

And no, I’m not being this skeptical because of PP the person. I’m being this skeptical because it reads like campaign promises, however vague.

I've said it before, I'll give hime a shot. But I'm prepared to be disappointed.

The only thing I know for sure is the LPC and JT have to go.

 

[dapaterson]

I was upset when Erin O'Toole was deposed after he increased the number of CPC seats in the HoC after unprecedented federal spending.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Except it's not. I don't know how many times we've gone over this on this side. There is an actual definition/meaning to "woke", and no reasonable person should be against that meaning.

The right co-opted the word to be a pejorative terms indicating first anything extremely progressive that was being pushed quickly and aggressively, to now being about literally anything progressive, at all.

A word was co-opted? Say it ain't so.

Please Just Fucking Tell Me What Term I Am Allowed to Use for the Sweeping Social and Political Changes You Demand.

 

[Furniture]

The right co-opted the word to be a pejorative terms indicating first anything extremely progressive that was being pushed quickly and aggressively, to now being about literally anything progressive, at all.

Like how anything not on the leading edge of progressive is dismissed as Alt-Right, or every statement people don't like is called a "dog whistle'?

 

[Lumber]

Like how anything not on the leading edge of progressive is dismissed as Alt-Right, or every statement people don't like is called a "dog whistle'?

Exactly!

Edit: just look at the middle of my 3 signatures below

 

[Fabius]

Except it's not. I don't know how many times we've gone over this on this side. There is an actual definition/meaning to "woke", and no reasonable person should be against that meaning.

The right co-opted the word to be a pejorative terms indicating first anything extremely progressive that was being pushed quickly and aggressively, to now being about literally anything progressive, at all.

The problem is that PP is campaigning (shut up, yes he is) to be the leader of the 9th largest economy in the world. He's suppose to be an adult, he's supposed to be professional, and he's supposed to be informed. (He actually is those things, but he's not appearing as those things). His use of woke in the pejorative creates division.

Words often evolve in their meaning. “Woke” has as well to the point where yes the user should now provide a definition of what they are speaking or writing about.

Reasonable people can certainly be opposed to many of the ideas espoused by people who classify the ideas as being under the “woke” umbrella.

I would suggest that in the broad societal understanding “woke” can be best understood as social justice which Thomas Sowell argued is actually cosmic justice, described in his article and book Here.

Cosmic justice aka social justice is fundamentally incompatible with individual freedom and the rule of law.

Many reasonable people would more value individual freedom and rule of law over attempts at achieving cosmic justice.

 

[TacticalTea]

Also I disagree completely with the notion that it is the Right that co-opted the word "woke".

It was first used by American Blacks to express "black political consciousness" in America, until it was broadened by the Left in the second half of the 2010s, and, as the below Google Trends graph shows, only became politically controversial in the 20s during the Pandemic.


That is when the general public, not just "the Right", started realizing that ideas associated with wokism weren't all sunshine and rainbows, but much more pernicious than initially understood. I know because I campaigned for Liberals in 2019 then shifted Rightwards during the pandemic, finally deciding not to vote Liberal at the last minute in 2021.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Also I disagree completely with the notion that it is the Right that co-opted the word "woke".

It was first used by American Blacks to express "black political consciousness" in America, until it was broadened by the Left in the second half of the 2010s, and, as the below Google Trends graph shows, only became politically controversial in the 20s during the Pandemic.

The usual evolution.

A word acquires pejorative meaning.

"Our word is used disparagingly. We're going to change our word. Hereafter, we are X."

All of the characteristics associated with the old word continue to be associated with X, and, for the short time that X is novel and positive, a bunch of other people claim it as their umbrella, too, bringing their characteristics into the mix.

Not all of the characteristics are favourable, so X acquires pejorative meaning.

"X is used disparagingly. We're going to change our word. Hereafter, we are Y."

 

[Eaglelord17]

Saw a interesting argument the other day. Basically it was that out of the over 100 billion people who have ever lived in history, over 99% would be considered ‘far-right’ or ‘right wing’ by todays standards.

The West has come a long way in terms of values in even the last 20 years (the whole LGBT… thing being a excellent example) and a very small amount of the world agrees with those stances.

As we are going to likely find out soon with how many immigrants of different values we have brought into the country so quickly, those new values can and will be challenged. If people think social Conservatives are particularly regressive in our society then they are in for a world of surprise when they find out how many of these new immigrants think.

 

[Remius]

Saw a interesting argument the other day. Basically it was that out of the over 100 billion people who have ever lived in history, over 99% would be considered ‘far-right’ or ‘right wing’ by todays standards.

Interesting argument.

And most of that never lived with the concepts of individual freedom and rights. A good chunk lived under tyranny, autocracy etc etc

The West has come a long way in terms of values in even the last 20 years (the whole LGBT… thing being a excellent example) and a very small amount of the world agrees with those stances.

The same can be said for things like democracy, free movement, capitalism, etc etc

As we are going to likely find out soon with how many immigrants of different values we have brought into the country so quickly, those new values can and will be challenged. If people think social Conservatives are particularly regressive in our society then they are in for a world of surprise when they find out how many of these new immigrants think.

I suspect many of those immigrants escaped many of those places to embrace the freedoms and opportunities we have here. I don’t see too many immigrants trying to change or challenge much but I certainly see a lot of special interest groups trying to.

I’ll take what we have in the west over the rest any day. I won the lottery living here in this time and space.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Interesting argument.

And most of that never lived with the concepts of individual freedom and rights. A good chunk lived under tyranny, autocracy etc etc

The same can be said for things like democracy, free movement, capitalism, etc etc

I suspect many of those immigrants escaped many of those places to embrace the freedoms and opportunities we have here. I don’t see too many immigrants trying to change or challenge much but I certainly see a lot of special interest groups trying to.

I’ll take what we have in the west over the rest any day. I won the lottery living here in this time and space.

100%, my ancestors were mostly poor farmers, not exactly how I would have wanted to live. Never been a better time or place to be alive, a simple example being my son would be dead right now if it was even 100 years ago or much of the rest of the world.

I just found it a very interesting argument that was being made. I do think the amount of immigration we have done in such a short period of time will backfire on a lot of the more progressive policies in the near future.

Several million new voters who have a very different world view can have a large effect on our political system. Particularly if they decide to get out and vote.

 

[dimsum]

Several million new voters who have a very different world view can have a large effect on our political system. Particularly if they decide to get out and vote.

Which was not a realistic (not to be confused with “possible”) option for most. Plenty of countries with “elections” in massive air quotes.

Some of those folks will like actually having the freedom to do what they want. And if they don’t, chances are that their kids and grandkids will.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Saw a interesting argument the other day. Basically it was that out of the over 100 billion people who have ever lived in history, over 99% would be considered ‘far-right’ or ‘right wing’ by todays standards.

Seeing as the "Wings" political theory was founded during the French Revolution, I doubt a large section of those people would have a clue what the ideology of each label meant, let alone what democracy is. Its kind of a strawman argument.

The West has come a long way in terms of values in even the last 20 years (the whole LGBT… thing being a excellent example) and a very small amount of the world agrees with those stances.

Which is why we are in conflict with those other, repressive ideologies around the world. Being able to have freedom, acceptance, and self expression is a direct threat to the many oppressive totalitarian regimes, theocracies, and religions around the world that maintain power in subservience.

The West ideally shows that freedom is not a finite resource: you don't run out of freedom like slices of pie, and someone who used to have an empty plate isn't robbing from yours.

As we are going to likely find out soon with how many immigrants of different values we have brought into the country so quickly, those new values can and will be challenged.

On the contrary, I think you find each successive generation of immigrants adopt the ideals and beliefs of our nation with vigor.

My grandparents had a massive fear of police and the military because of their experiences under Mussolini. That and the Cosa Nostra were your "Local Police" who you went to whenever you had a pproblem. My grandmother had to be convinced to talk to a police officer by her priest when she got mugged on the way to church.

Now a days? Cosa who? My family is proud of my service and I have a place on the mantle beside the Sacro Cuoro.
 
There are many other immigrant groups that adapt and shift mentality after a few generations of kids are brought up on hockey, poutine, and Canadian society.

If people think social Conservatives are particularly regressive in our society then they are in for a world of surprise when they find out how many of these new immigrants think.

Many of these groups then become the wooden handle of the axe, used to cut down the tree they were a part of.

 

[Fabius]

That adaptation though still took two-three generations though. That’s a key point in terms of time.
That first generations beliefs will still matter in the near term.

Interestingly as well though the rate at which permanent residents become citizens has plummeted in the last 20 years.
According to Stats Canada and the census estimates it’s gone from 75% in 2001 to 40% in 2021.
Newcomers falling out of love with Canadian Citizenship

 

[ArmyRick]

My grandparents had a massive fear of police and the military because of their experiences under Mussolini. That and the Cosa Nostra were your "Local Police" who you went to whenever you had a pproblem. My grandmother had to be convinced to talk to a police officer by her priest when she got mugged on the way to church.

My in laws are from the same "old country" Interesting that my mother in law was very pro Liberal (until Trudeau JR), she worked at Commie I mean York U and my father in law was always pro conservative, he built and owned his own structural steel company.