A-10 Warthog to be retired by USAF (maybe)

[Ludoc]

Why retire them at all? I'm far from an expert at military procurement, but if the A-10 has shown it's worth to the degree it has... then why retire something that is working so well?
It would not be unheard of to keep it around or simply update it:

C-130 Hercules: First flight 1954. Currently in production as the "New" C-130J Super Hercules
CH-47 Chinook: First flight 1964. Currently in production
CH-53: First flight 1964.  Currently in production as the "New" CH-53K for the USMC
AH-1 Cobra: First flight 1965. Currently in production as AH-1Z Viper

I believe they have been out of production for 30 years now. The USAF, while crazy rich, does have a finite amount of money and supporting a 30+ year old air frame is expensive.

Their logic being: it will only get more expensive to support this plane that can only do one thing. Granted it does that thing really well. However for the less money, or worse case the same money, they can support planes that do multiple things well enough.

 

[StudentPilot23]

>

 

[daftandbarmy]

I believe they have been out of production for 30 years now. The USAF, while crazy rich, does have a finite amount of money and supporting a 30+ year old air frame is expensive.

Their logic being: it will only get more expensive to support this plane that can only do one thing. Granted it does that thing really well. However for the less money, or worse case the same money, they can support planes that do multiple things well enough.

The B52 is only much much older but, of course, is 'Strategic' so will survive:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-52_Stratofortress

 

[Loachman]

>

Really.

Early F15s were built for OCA and DCA. Later ones, like F15E, were built to drop bombs. I've never seen A10s used as FAC or SCAR (I'd never even seen the latter term before) platforms, but F16s, F15s, F18s, Harriers, B1s, and a whole bunch of others are pretty capable of doing everything on that A10 list. Technology has advanced.

Having FACked A10s in Germany during the Cold War, I had rather little faith that they'd have been as effective as claimed in a high-threat environment.

Interesting machine, though, but it is really a niche aircraft whose roles can be performed by others.

 

[GAP]

So, give them to the Army or Marines.

The Air Force never wanted them, they just didn't want the others to have control of them.

 

[tango22a]

Let's face it people... the upper echelon of the USAF Does NOT want to do CAS...period!!!

It's much easier to loiter at 30,000 feet over the battle field and lob JDAMs and JSOWs onto point targets.

That way there is only a minor threat to expensive aircraft and crew(s).

When one goes poking amongst the trees and terrain features one has a lot more chances to make fatal errors.

Unfortunately the mud movers need CAS on call almost immediately and the A10 is best suited for this role.

There seems to be a constant amount of bickering between the "fighter mafia" and the "strategic mafia" for control of input into the role(s) of the USAF in the future.


tango22a

 

[Colin Parkinson]

So, give them to the Army or Marines.

The Air Force never wanted them, they just didn't want the others to have control of them.

Yes but the Marine or the Army might be successful with them and that would not look good on the USAF

 

[Loachman]

The A10 is not the only machine capable of providing effective CAS. It provided only a small fraction of the CAS missions that I saw during my tours.

The US Army and USMC also have suitable aircraft to provide similar effects already. And I doubt that they want to be hit with the increasing costs of keeping an aging fleet in operation.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Marines have always been about  Orphan and/or aging fleets so that would fit into their Org structure nicely. But the A10 does take off from a carrier so that would limit their mission profile for the Marines. Hmm I wonder if aircraft carrier trials were ever tried for the Warthog?

 

[rampage800]

The A10 is not the only machine capable of providing effective CAS. It provided only a small fraction of the CAS missions that I saw during my tours.

Yup agree 100%,  saw F-15E's, F-16's, F-18's, AV-8's, B-1B's (the horror) MQ-1's and 9's all do a lot of great CAS work. The A-10 is obviously a formidable aircraft in this field but to discount the capabilities of the others is somewhat short sighted I'd think. The funny thing is really, there is no line on the JTAR to request a specific platform ie A-10, you request an effect !

 

[McG]

So, give them to the Army or Marines.

What should either service divest to afford the A-10?

 

[cupper]

Any idea where they plan to go with the AC-130's in view of this move with the A-10.

And does anyone know how they compared in effectiveness to each other?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Any idea where they plan to go with the AC-130's in view of this move with the A-10.

And does anyone know how they compared in effectiveness to each other?

Are you talking the AC-130 gunships?

AC-130A Spectre (Project Gunship II, Surprise Package, Pave Pronto) Nineteen converted from C-130As, transferred to Air Force Reserve in 1975, retired in 1995.
AC-130E Spectre (Pave Spectre, Pave Aegis) Eleven converted from C-130Es, ten upgraded to AC-130H configuration.
AC-130H Spectre Eight operational (active duty USAF)
AC-130U Spooky II Seventeen operational with (active duty USAF)
AC-130J Ghostrider Sixteen planned to replace AC-130H and increase fleet size. First test flight occurred 31 January 2014.
AC-130W Stinger II (MC-130W Dragon Spear) Twelve converted from MC-130Ws and operational (active duty USAF)

It looks like they're bringing 16 Ghostrider types on line, so we'll probably see them around for awhile yet.

 

[a_majoor]

Perhaps of interest to us as well is the "Harvest HAWK", which is essentially a gunship "kit" which can be fitted to the C-130 airframe. The USMC is looking into this for their fire support needs:

http://www.gunsandtactics.com/ac-130-gunships-for-the-usmc

AC-130 Gunships for the USMC

If you’ve done any appreciable amount of reading about the Vietnam War, you know that one of the grunt’s best friends in the air was the AC-130 Specter gunship, affectionately known in those days as “Puff the Magic Dragon.” Both the AC-130H and third-generation AC-130U Spooky pack a lethal combination of L60 40mm Bofors and M102 105mm cannons — yes, that’s 105mm, as in the light artillery piece. The AC-130U also boasts a GAU-12 25mm rotary cannon.

The AC-130U operates primary in support of special operations forces. Not surprisingly, the average Joes on the ground would like a piece of this devastating air support action, so the Marine Corps began looking at options. The problem, especially in today’s environment of shrinking budgets, was the price tag: a single 12-plan squadron of AC-130Js (the USMC variant) would cost as much as 45 KC-130J aerial tankers.

The Corps is used to dealing with budget constraints, however, and in that spirit began considering creative solutions. Their answer was the Harvest Hercules Airborne Weapons Kit (HAWK), which retrofits KC-130J tankers with a weapons package. The tankers tend to loiter over the battlefield anyway, since they can refuel both helicopters and jets, so why not make use of their spare time for fire support?

Harvest HAWK consists of four component sets formally called Capabilities. One is a palletized surveillance and fire control electronics package combined with a sensor pod that mounts on an external fuel tank hardpoint; the second is a rack for some combination of AGM-114P Hellfire missiles and DAGR 70mm laser-guided rockets, which also mounts on a hardpoint. Capability III is a 30mm cannon that mounts in the troop door, and Capability IV is a cargo ramp-mounted rack called “Gunslinger” that can carry a variety of munitions, with the Griffin A missile from Raytheon currently the mainstay.

Though a Harvest HAWK-equipped KC-130J is certainly not as capable as the AC-130U — which shouldn’t be surprising given the blending of two very different mission profiles—this option is also significantly less expensive. Future munitions options for Capability IV include the GBU-44 Viper Strike, which can be either laser- or GPS-guided, and a rocket-powered version of the unpowered Griffin designated Griffin B, which have the potential to further enhance the offensive capabilities of Harvest HAWK.

With only 8 AC-130H and 17 AC-130U aircraft in the inventory, the additional capability offered by Harvest HAWK will be welcome—which may be the reason why SOCOM itself has also taken an interest in the project.

The downside of the C-130 based gunship is it is very big and very slow, to the point that they only operate at night, and against enemies with limited GBAD and air capabilities. I suspect the real future for this sort of capability rests with some combination of UCAV and long range stand off weapons delivered from a variety of platforms.

 

[Kilo_302]

Food for thought:  http://aviationweek.com/awin/textron-unveils-scorpion-light-attack-recce-jet

Not the same role as the A-10, but if the Air Force is looking at a long term aircraft to provide support in a COIN environment something like this might fit the bill. Textron seems to think so anyways.

 

[CougarKing]

The A-10 saga continues:

Defense News intercepts

If the A-10 Heads to Iraq, Don’t Expect Changes at Home.
Aaron Mehta / 3 days ago

On Monday, the Ft. Wayne Journal Gazette reported that 300 airmen of the 122nd Fighter Wing, a National Guard unit based in Ft. Wayne, IN., would be deploying to the Middle East. Although the deployment has been in the works for a while, it only takes a short jump of logic to think these airmen will end up taking part in the ongoing operation to “decay and degrade” the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (IS, sometimes referred to as ISIL).

(...SNIPPED)

So would a grand showing by the A-10 in Iraq, perhaps protecting Iraqi ground troops or mowing through lines of IS ground vehicles with its 30mm cannon, lead to widespread support for the jet and force the service to withdraw its plans?

It doesn’t seem likely.

It’s easy to assume a successful operation conducted by the A-10 would turn heads on the Hill and raise support for the plane. In theory, it could give supporters of the plane the proof they need to push back at the Air Force’s attempts to retire the system.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[YZT580]

Just a month or so after being saved from the scrap heap, the A10 is heading off to war once again.  Stars and Stripes reports that the 122nd is slated for deployment against ISIS. 

 

[KevinB]

Just a month or so after being saved from the scrap heap, the A10 is heading off to war once again.  Stars and Stripes reports that the 122nd is slated for deployment against ISIS.

Warms my heart -- I guess the idiotic sorry I meant Supersonic fighter crowd wasn't as valuable as they thought...

 

[CougarKing]

McCain to the A-10's rescue?

Military.com

Sen. John McCain Vows to Save A-10 From Retirement

Associated Press | Nov 07, 2014

PHOENIX – Sen. John McCain says the Air Force won't be able to retire the A-10 Warthog ground attack jet now that he's in line to become chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.
McCain said Thursday the A-10 is the best close-air support aircraft ever made and there is "no doubt" Congress will prevent its retirement. Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson has 80 of the twin-jet planes and trains A-10 pilots.

McCain says there's no replacement for the jet's close-air support mission and pointed to a June friendly fire in Afghanistan where a B-1 bomber mistakenly targeted American troops, killing five.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[Rifleman62]

Update.

http://www.ibtimes.com/10-thunderbolt-deployed-iraq-fight-against-islamic-state-1729923

A-10 Thunderbolt Deployed To Iraq For Fight Against The Islamic State

By Christopher Harress - 26 Nov 14

The once-endangered A-10 Thunderbolt aircraft, saved from the scrap heap by Congress earlier this year, will now fly operations in Iraq after previously being deployed to Afghanistan this year. Only a handful of the aircraft will make the journey to southwest Asia to take part in the fight against ISIS, the rest remaining behind in Afghanistan.

According to Air Force Central Command, the aircraft arrived over four days between Nov. 17-21 as part of the newly reformed 332nd Air Expeditionary Wing, which was disbanded after 10 years of service in the Middle East. It provided security during the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq.

The initial deployment to Afghanistan in September involved 300 airmen from the Indiana National Guard, specifically from the 163rd Expeditionary Fighter Squadron based at Fort Wayne, Indiana, also known as the “Blacksnakes.”

While the Pentagon tried to get rid of the aircraft, chiefly because of upcoming sequestration in 2016, Congress unanimously saved it at the eleventh hour.

The low-flying aircraft, also known as the Warthog, is a favorite among ground troops as it offers accurate and powerful ground support that other fighter-bombers, which must fly higher and faster, cannot provide.

“They’re going over there because there’s a need … to be postured for a combat rescue mission,” said Jennifer Cassidy, an Air Force spokeswoman. “While they’re there, we will maximize their use,” Cassidy said.

The aircraft will be used against the Islamic State group, which has until now been targeted by airstrikes from high-flying U.S. and coalition aircraft.

The Air Force did not specify how many A-10s were in theatre except to say that it was an “expeditionary squadron-sized element.” The service also declined to say where the A-10s would be stationed during the operations, due to diplomatic sensitivities.

This most recent deployment comes after the Republicans won the Senate, likely thrusting John McCain to the chairmanship of the Senate Armed Forces Committee. The Vietnam veteran has been a key advocate for the aircraft, and his leadership, which is yet to be confirmed, will likely see the aircraft’s services retained for years to come.



http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/pentagon/2014/11/26/a-10s-deply-iraq-islamic-state/19520527/ 

A-10s deploy to fight in Iraq

By Brian Everstine, Staff writer 4:22 p.m. EST November 26, 2014

Several A-10s from the 163rd Fighter Squadron of the Indiana Air National Guard have deployed to southwest Asia to support Operation Inherent Resolve, along with other operations. The A-10s were previously deployed to Afghanistan, but have moved to southwest Asia to focus on the fight against the Islamic State group.

The deployment includes about 300 airmen, the Indiana National Guard said when the squadron first went to Afghanistan in September.

The aircraft arrived over several days from Nov. 17-21, according to Air Forces Central Command.

The Warthogs are the first combat aircraft for the newly reactivated 332nd Air Expeditionary Group, The unit was deactivated in early 2012 after operations ended in Iraq. The unit provided overwatch for the last convoys out of Iraq.

The Indiana Guard's 122nd Fighter Wing is one of the units slated to lose their A-10s under the Air Force's proposal to retire the fleet. Under Air Force plans, which are being blocked in Congress, the unit would receive F-16s in 2019.