A Leaky Sieve: Retention in the ADF

[Quirky]

To a degree, those are also often just symptoms of mental illness. It makes you unmotivated, it makes you want to eat like shit, it makes you more likely to abuse alcohol, pot, or other drugs.

No ambition, no drive, no motivation and no self-disciple isn't a mental illness, it's a conscious choice. People, especially those in first-world countries like Australia and Canada, should get a little perspective on how good their life is considering what's happening to Ukraine for example. I have zero sympathy for entitled Canadians, never mind CAF members who've never been outside the training system, who think their life is hard.

 

[QV]

Don't want to put the cart before the horse though. Need to do actual resilience training before ramping up the stress levels. Sequence matters!

So add a few days of resilience training ahead of beasting them in BMQ?

 

[QV]

The REAL story in the CAF isn't the recruiting/retention issue, it's the number of members filling positions that are unfit for service.

It would be interesting to know the actual numbers CAF wide. I'm certain if accounted for, the CAF is probably closer to 25k understrength.

I'm certain you are correct in your assessment. I'm guessing this figure is accurately known but held tight.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Don't want to put the cart before the horse though. Need to do actual resilience training before ramping up the stress levels. Sequence matters!

You mean trying to stress people out to see if they break off the bat isn't a good method? Sometimes seems like we take someone from t-ball, put them in front of a Roger Clemens, then wonder why they can't hit a fastball (and act surprised when someone jumps out a window in the mega).

Or, take a really fit, motivated person in basic, send spent casings to be instructors on things they don't know what they are doing, then act surprised when a few people get a PCat from injuries sustained by some ass clown that throws an artie sim at their feet. Or gets raped in St Jean.

And then if they get through that, randomly send them around the country, with long breaks between being useful with their thumb up their asses on PAT, finally get up to OFP to find broken ass equipment with an unrealisitc schedule and not enough people and see if they stay in.

And then if after all that, they have enough, claim they are soft.

Sure, a lot of people join that may not be suitable for service, but given how good we are at turning motivated people into cynical spent casings, I suspect it's not them, it's us, is probably a more likely explanation for the massive retention issues.

When a ship comes back from a deployment, 50% submit a VR, and the reasons why get promoted, it's not an individual issue.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You know there is a proven and tested system for getting people into your army

 

[btrudy]

So add a few days of resilience training ahead of beasting them in BMQ?

Or just don't "beast" them at all in BMQ, because the point of basic training is that it should be basic; it should teach people all the skills that everyone in the CAF needs; what it shouldn't do is pretend like everyone in the CAF also needs to be up to the task of being in the Infantry. You don't really need to "beast" HRAs or AVN Techs or MARTECs or Sonar Ops or MSEOs or Dentists at all. What you do need to do is get them up to a reasonable level of physical fitness such that they can maintain an ability to pass the FORCE test easily enough, some basic weapons handling skills, and teach them all about how the CAF works.

Resilience training will of course be a useful aspect of that for all candidates. "Beasting" them will not.

No ambition, no drive, no motivation and no self-disciple isn't a mental illness, it's a conscious choice.

Oh, just stop being depressed! Why didn't anyone ever think of that‽ When you're depressed and it's affecting you physically and mentally, you just need to choose to stop! Thank you so much Doctor Quirky, I'll be sure to submit your nomination for the Nobel Prize for Medicine immediately.

You mean trying to stress people out to see if they break off the bat isn't a good method? Sometimes seems like we take someone from t-ball, put them in front of a Roger Clemens, then wonder why they can't hit a fastball (and act surprised when someone jumps out a window in the mega).

Or, take a really fit, motivated person in basic, send spent casings to be instructors on things they don't know what they are doing, then act surprised when a few people get a PCat from injuries sustained by some ass clown that throws an artie sim at their feet. Or gets raped in St Jean.

And then if they get through that, randomly send them around the country, with long breaks between being useful with their thumb up their asses on PAT, finally get up to OFP to find broken ass equipment with an unrealisitc schedule and not enough people and see if they stay in.

And then if after all that, they have enough, claim they are soft.

Sure, a lot of people join that may not be suitable for service, but given how good we are at turning motivated people into cynical spent casings, I suspect it's not them, it's us, is probably a more likely explanation for the massive retention issues.

When a ship comes back from a deployment, 50% submit a VR, and the reasons why get promoted, it's not an individual issue.

I do hope that PaCE does a better job of differentiating "leadership" with "being an asshole to your subordinates". I think it will; at the very least it seems to be better baked into the evaluation criteria.

But anyways, you've outlined a large part of why reconstitution is an effort that will need to take effect across the entire org, and not just some minor policy tweaks and recruitment process changes. We're doing a great job of driving people out the door with the current way we do business, and the only way we're ever going to change that is by actually changing the way we do business.

 

[Furniture]

Or just don't "beast" them at all in BMQ, because the point of basic training is that it should be basic; it should teach people all the skills that everyone in the CAF needs; what it shouldn't do is pretend like everyone in the CAF also needs to be up to the task of being in the Infantry. You don't really need to "beast" HRAs or AVN Techs or MARTECs or Sonar Ops or MSEOs or Dentists at all. What you do need to do is get them up to a reasonable level of physical fitness such that they can maintain an ability to pass the FORCE test easily enough, some basic weapons handling skills, and teach them all about how the CAF works.

Resilience training will of course be a useful aspect of that for all candidates. "Beasting" them will not.

People need to be uncomfortable and pushed, but there are ways to work people up to it. Making basic training too easy would also be a disservice to members.

We aren't taking in farm hands, lumberjacks, and fishermen these days. Most recruits haven't been out the door at 0500 into the cold morning air to work a day in the fields, forests, or in the back of a boat. They need to be worked into early mornings, long days, physical exhaustion, uncomfortable working conditions, and lack of sleep. Not because it will be the normal experience of being a CAF member, but to show them that they can overcome those things when they are required to on occasion.

The average recruit should be coming out of BMQ thinking it was difficult, but not too difficult in the end.

 

[childs56]

People need to be uncomfortable and pushed, but there are ways to work people up to it. Making basic training too easy would also be a disservice to members.

We aren't taking in farm hands, lumberjacks, and fishermen these days. Most recruits haven't been out the door at 0500 into the cold morning air to work a day in the fields, forests, or in the back of a boat. They need to be worked into early mornings, long days, physical exhaustion, uncomfortable working conditions, and lack of sleep. Not because it will be the normal experience of being a CAF member, but to show them that they can overcome those things when they are required to on occasion.

The average recruit should be coming out of BMQ thinking it was difficult, but not too difficult in the end.

I agree, making basic to easy will result in a poor showing in the work required sometimes. As it was lots of people complained often when they had to work late or weekends. (we were compensated for it) Nothing wrong with the way Basic training was in my opinion. We need to up the game in instructor standards.

 

[Furniture]

I agree, making basic to easy will result in a poor showing in the work required sometimes. As it was lots of people complained often when they had to work late or weekends. (we were compensated for it) Nothing wrong with the way Basic training was in my opinion. We need to up the game in instructor standards.

It needed updating, though from what I've heard the "fixes" might not be ideal. Time will tell.

One of the issues the CAF needs to fix is the "You're paid to work 24/7" mentality. We are paid based on a standard 40 hour work week, plus a "military factor" to make up for occasional times we work late/early, or weekends. A day off three weeks later for working an entire weekend isn't compensation.

I definitely agree on the instructor thing, the issue right now is the CAF doesn't incentivize the posting. Particularly if you and your family are Anglophones...

 

[childs56]

It needed updating, though from what I've heard the "fixes" might not be ideal. Time will tell.

One of the issues the CAF needs to fix is the "You're paid to work 24/7" mentality. We are paid based on a standard 40 hour work week, plus a "military factor" to make up for occasional times we work late/early, or weekends. A day off three weeks later for working an entire weekend isn't compensation.

I definitely agree on the instructor thing, the issue right now is the CAF doesn't incentivize the posting. Particularly if you and your family are Anglophones...

I think the biggest issues were and may still be PAT platoon, so many members were stuck in the system not being trained. Being treated like crap leaves a bad thought about what the Military is and isn't. The leaders saying well they are being paid so tough crap for them.
A person signs up to be trained. They take a initial posting to the training center/ Borden expecting to be sent for training asap. Instead some at the time I was in took 2-3 years before being trades trained. I would have told them train me or let me go. Leadership did not care one bit. In many cases they looked at PAT Platoon as a problem child full of drunken out of control members. When in fact it was full of bored out of their mind tired of menial task, thinking what's the worse that could happen.

Fix the training program, that might mean our current Military needs to park the Navy Fleet, shut down flying ops and bring home our Army for a year or two. Have the current members billeted to training units and get training the new men and women, get caught up on their own training and get our equipment sorted out. At the end of two years we either sink or swim so to speak.

 

[Furniture]

I think the biggest issues were and may still be PAT platoon, so many members were stuck in the system not being trained. Being treated like crap leaves a bad thought about what the Military is and isn't. The leaders saying well they are being paid so tough crap for them.
A person signs up to be trained. They take a initial posting to the training center/ Borden expecting to be sent for training asap. Instead some at the time I was in took 2-3 years before being trades trained. I would have told them train me or let me go. Leadership did not care one bit. In many cases they looked at PAT Platoon as a problem child full of drunken out of control members. When in fact it was full of bored out of their mind tired of menial task, thinking what's the worse that could happen.

Fix the training program, that might mean our current Military needs to park the Navy Fleet, shut down flying ops and bring home our Army for a year or two. Have the current members billeted to training units and get training the new men and women, get caught up on their own training and get our equipment sorted out. At the end of two years we either sink or swim so to speak.

I was an instructor in my trade's school during that time, the worst students were the ones who had gotten accustomed to PAT platoon in Borden for a couple of years. Because they were ignored, and left to be bord or fend for themselves, they seemed to struggle the most with sitting in a classroom for 8 hours a day, then doing homework at night. I suspect the CAF has learned from that mistake, and is more carefully lining up recruitment with school's ability to take students.

Schools can only put so many people through the training system, as there are hard limits on computers, simulators, vehicles, etc... My understanding is that schools are supposed to be staffed to 100% already, and anything beyond 100% staffing is more than likely to be a waste of people's time.

Another thing the CAF needs to worry about is creating bubbles in trades. My trade did this from '09-'14, running multiple full load DP1 serials a year, which created a massive surge in Pte/Cpls. We couldn't employ them effectively because there are only so many jobs at that level in the occupation, so they got out at between 3-7 years of service, leaving us with a huge gap in experience at the middle level now.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Recruits in 2023 aren't being beasted on their basic training in Canada.

Some things that are happening though are:
1. An over abundance of people claiming mental health issues joining the CAF. [1]
2. People passing basic, then requiring accomodations and MELs shortly after for mental health issues.
3. People who fail portions of basic training (gas hut, ranges, field time) still passing.

Beasting people on basic training is dumb.

When we don't make recruits tired, uncomfortable, stressed, cold, hungry, sore, hurting during their basic training we suffer for it afterwards.

Sometimes resiliency training isn't closing your eyes and doing box breathing or picturing 5 things you can see and 4 things you can smell etc..
Sometimes resiliency training IS getting woken up at 4am to do PT in the rain, missing a meal, and not getting to call home for a week.



[1]according to autobiographies, medical staff, and comments people make about themselves on social media and forums.

 

[Remius]

Mental health everywhere has come to the forefront. People talk about it more and it has become more normalized. I’ve heard conversations with kids comparing what sort of medications they are on or what they’ve been diagnosed with.

I think that is why we see more upfront admissions or claims of mental health issues in the CAF. I think it’s always been present in the CAF but now we are more open and accommodating to that fact.

 

[Jarnhamar]

We have recruits with a history of depression and cutting themselves when they are stressed joining. I don't think that's a good thing. It looks like we're accepting people that head right to the medical system.

I also think normalizing mental health issues can have an averse effect where it leads to young people wanting to have them to fit in.

It's not something to be embarassed about and it's good to identify it and deal with it. At least half of the kids in my kids school classroom believe they have ADHD or some kind of mental health issue. Then again maybe they do and our society is just a lot sicker than we've realized for years.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Or just don't "beast" them at all in BMQ, because the point of basic training is that it should be basic; it should teach people all the skills that everyone in the CAF needs; what it shouldn't do is pretend like everyone in the CAF also needs to be up to the task of being in the Infantry. You don't really need to "beast" HRAs or AVN Techs or MARTECs or Sonar Ops or MSEOs or Dentists at all. What you do need to do is get them up to a reasonable level of physical fitness such that they can maintain an ability to pass the FORCE test easily enough, some basic weapons handling skills, and teach them all about how the CAF works.

Resilience training will of course be a useful aspect of that for all candidates. "Beasting" them will not.



Oh, just stop being depressed! Why didn't anyone ever think of that‽ When you're depressed and it's affecting you physically and mentally, you just need to choose to stop! Thank you so much Doctor Quirky, I'll be sure to submit your nomination for the Nobel Prize for Medicine immediately.



I do hope that PaCE does a better job of differentiating "leadership" with "being an asshole to your subordinates". I think it will; at the very least it seems to be better baked into the evaluation criteria.

But anyways, you've outlined a large part of why reconstitution is an effort that will need to take effect across the entire org, and not just some minor policy tweaks and recruitment process changes. We're doing a great job of driving people out the door with the current way we do business, and the only way we're ever going to change that is by actually changing the way we do business.

I did BMQ in 2004 and then did IAP/BOTP in 2005. It wasn't a beasting at all. Physically speaking, it was easy, and the real beastings came later at the Infantry School.

If you can't handle the physical rigours of basic training, sorry but you shouldn't be in the Military.

There seems to be this perception that Basic Training in St Jean is lnfantry Lite? That's incorrect.

Basic Training in St Jean is nothing like the training received at Battle School or the Infantry School. It's childs play in comparison.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

We have recruits with a history of depression and cutting themselves when they are stressed joining. I don't think that's a good thing. It looks like we're accepting people that head right to the medical system.

We do accept those people, they are a drain on our Force. I had to personally deal with them.

I also think normalizing mental health issues can have an averse effect where it leads to young people wanting to have them to fit in.

It's not something to be embarassed about and it's good to identify it and deal with it. At least half of the kids in my kids school classroom believe they have ADHD or some kind of mental health issue. Then again maybe they do and our society is just a lot sicker than we've realized for years.

This seems to be the case.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The CAF recruiting and training system is simply dealing with the product it's provided by the Canadian population. The CAF is just trying to make do with what it can get.

We have created a weak society. Therefore our product will be weak.

Again, in the cycle we're at the "weak men make hard times" position. Human nature will fix this eventually.

 

[Jarnhamar]

We do accept those people, they are a drain on our Force. I had to personally deal with them.

I'm probably coming across like a dick and like I don't care but I legitimately do.

I see units hiding injured members away until it's too late then they explode.
I also see members' issues hidden and the person gets posted to a unit where people at the gaining unit are drowning expecting some relief; surprise their new NCO is a wreck.

One solution is to be open and identify it early and get treated early like I believe Remius was eluding to.
Another solution is to prevent them from joining the CAF and adding to our stretched medical resources, let them rely on the province instead. We should prioritize treating MH injuries we cause in members, not childhood trauma if we can help it.

 

[Quirky]

I also think normalizing mental health issues can have an averse effect where it leads to young people wanting to have them to fit in.

Frankly, I'm f*&king sick of all this mental health talk. I can't walk into one CAF building without seeing a "get help" poster with dozens of phone numbers to call, or have some type of mental health speech during our unit briefs. Cut the shit already. Make it a once a year refresher like Cold weather and move on with life. I some times get the feeling they WANT people to seek mental help for every little emotion a person has.

 

[dimsum]

Frankly, I'm f*&king sick of all this mental physical health talk. I can't walk into one CAF building without seeing a "get help" poster with dozens of phone numbers to call, or have some type of mental physical health speech during our unit briefs. Cut the shit already. Make it a once a year refresher like Cold weather and move on with life. I some times get the feeling they WANT people to seek mental physical help for every little emotion ailment a person has.

a) Don't read the posters then?

b) Read my substitutions above. Does that seem appropriate? I'm not talking about the "sprained ankle" stuff but the chronic stuff.