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A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively

Out of respect I had avoided commenting on his legacy until now. He achieved an astonishing political success, thanks in part to his energy, drive and personality. However, much of his success in Quebec, where he made truly astouding gains despite a slate of obscure non-entities, was because he pandered to Quebec nationalism. Specifically he evoked the NDP's Sherbrooke Declaration which repudiated the Clarity Act in favour of the 50 percent plus one option so favoured by the independence movement.

To take the party over the next hurdle, which would be to form government, it must at the least win the most seats in the next election. That to me means winning more than 30 seats from the Tories, which may be easier said than done. What about merging with the Liberals? Unfortunately the combined party would still require to take about the same number to gain power in a two party house. This second option depends on the willingness of the Liberals to go that route, which is by no means certain.

Now, what if a sovereigntist party gains power in Quebec and declares it will hold a referendum and not consider itself bound by the Clarity Act? How many NDP supporters, especially the soft social democrats would be willing to go along with that? And the NDP prospects are worse if no union with the Grits happens and it is in a minority position. It would be defeated in the House and then very likely would be crushed at the polls.

Another option is the Quebec support softening, which could move the party back into third place or worse. Even without out that, it still must more than double its support outside Quebec to win a majority.

There are a few other scenarios, none of which are any more attractive. It may be, that just as Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg was the high water mark of the Confederacy, the NDP has nowhere to go but down.
 
Quebec bled the Liberals dry, then the Conservatives, the Liberals again, formed their own national party to bleed dry, will bleed the NDP dry, all the while bleeding Canada dry.

Enough is enough.
 
Others have said this much better than I, but it bears repeating: Québec politics is a sort of cloud coocoo land full of irrational dreams and devoid of any reasonable sense of history. No one, not Lucien Bouchard and not Jack Layton can or could ever meet Québec's expectations because they are, simultaneously, irrational and contradictory. But Layton played the nationalist card and, for better or worse the NDP is the opposition in parliament and, therefore, for the media, the government in waiting. The NDP caucus is top heavy with young, inexperienced Québec political neophytes who, in most cases, I think, ran on NDP ideals but ended up winning with nationalist votes. They cannot deliver – no one can: Trudeau could not, Mulroney could not, Bouchard could not, Chrétien could not, Duceppe could not, Layton could not have, either.

Québec will fragment again – two or three federalist parties and two or three nationalist parties; it will be interesting to see into which group the NDP falls.

Harper is, I believe learning to govern without Québec – not against Québec, just without it. When AB, BC and ON have even more seats in the HoC Québec and it's fractured, fatuous politics will matter less and less and the other major national party, the Liberals, will, finally, understand that, too.
 
recceguy said:
I didn't know Mr Layton personally, so I won't get in that long line of people spilling their platitudes, guts, and wearing their hearts on a sleeve about this ordinary socialist that got too much air time. I won't call him 'Jack" like he was my next door neighbour, because he wasn't and first names are reserved for people who you have met and have given you permission to use their surname. I'm sure he was a great guy to have a beer with, but he is just a person. A person that, until a week ago, most couldn't stand because of his communist values.

I am sorry for the way he went. No one wants to be saddled with that crap. I'm sorry for his family, that they had to endure this and I'm sorry for their loss. Cancer is a ***** and no one should have to endure it.

I didn't like his public persona, his policies or his yappy little ghetto dog attitude.

I am not sorry he's gone from politics. I'm not sorry that this will cause extreme gnashing of teeth in his party. And I won't be sorry if his party implodes because he is not at the helm.

To me, Jack Layton was a ponce and a poser. He played to the supposed downtrodden, socially unacceptable for their unwillingness to work, and any others that wanted something for nothing. He lived pretty high on the hog, between him and Olivia for a couple of 'We're all equal, power to the people' bullshit.

He also managed to shanghai every Union organization in the country. Not unexpected or difficult, considering the socialist bent, the small minded, short term worker agenda all these organizations have.

He is not a Saint, he is not a Martyr. He was a person who, most here an elseware, despised. He was a hypocrite. A typical politician. Get over it.

This is the guy that refused to attend Ramp Ceremonies.

He didn't go to Afghanistan, as many politicians from every party did, even though he could have gone to see first hand and chose not to.

He tried to use the deaths of fallen troops as part of his agenda on the 5 o'clock news. Least he could have done was go to a ramp ceremony, but he couldn't be bothered. I don't even remember any official statements either.

He called us "war criminals" with regards to the implications on mistreatment of Taliban detainees by the Afghan authorities. He couldn't look us in the eyes when these accusations were proven false and even offer an apology.

He wanted us to negotiate with an enemy that maims and murders women and children based on their archaic 12th century beliefs.

I really fail to see the 'greatness' of Jack Layton or why we are celebrating his passing. Great guy? My dad was a great guy, but the PM didn't acknowledge him.

Jack Layton was not that special. Quit pretending he was.

That's my  :2c: on the subject. Mourn in private and spare us the bullshit platitudes.

I really enjoyed reading this and couldn't agree more (nor could ever word it so well).

As far as I'm concerned he was an ass.  I'm not going to jump on the greif tourisim train and water down my opinion of him because he died.

I've read one NDP MP said he gave his life for the country? Sure.
 
I would not have "canonized" Jack Layton a week before I knew he had any sort of serious illness and I will not now.  Hard turns of fate - or benevolent ones - are not factors which should lift or lower a person's reputation.
 
Brad Sallows said:
I would not have "canonized" Jack Layton a week before I knew he had any sort of serious illness and I will not now.  Hard turns of fate - or benevolent ones - are not factors which should lift or lower a person's reputation.

This is done all the time, especially for people reaching the height of their careers or on a rapidly upwards trajectory. When their lives are cut short, there is a general feeling of "what if" and "what might have been" among fans, friends and followers. Music stars like Jim Morrison, Jimmi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Ian Curtis and Amy Winehouse are perhaps the most obvious, but we can also consider James Dean in the movie business or JFK and RFK in the political arena. Generally, a close look at these individuals reveals a very different picture of their personalities and abilities (or even their accomplishments, take an objective look at JFK's presidential record and it is possible he would have had a tough fight to gain a second term).

I'm sure that dozens of other contenders in various fields could be nominated for the "What if" cannonization.
 
Rifleman62 said:
What day is it that Jack will arise again?

It'll take about 3 1/2 years.

First, (and this starts right now), they'll run a study to find the tomb.
Then, another grant to decide who goes into the tomb.
Then, another (grant-funded) study to decide how many/who should be in the tomb.
Then, a public poll, (grant-funded), determining if the (Tomb-goers) represent the working populous in sufficient numbers.

Then, caviar and cocktails!
(But, they will feel bad, and invite some "working-class Joes"...)


Then they'll find the tomb.



Lemme know what happens when they figure out how to roll the stone away.
 
In the old days, the departed King was buried with his household possessions, servants and other sundries to assist in the afterlife.

Just saying.........
 
ModlrMike said:
Something like this?

Right on the friggin' button.

I didn't like the policies or party to begin with, but, from what I've read, I like him a little bit less everyday.

I still don't think it changes the fact that he was an excellent leader (insert Stalin/Hitler/BB Ghali stuff here).

A good leader does not a Saint make.

WHOOPS:...eta: STONE HER!
(always gotta continue any Python)
 
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