Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

[Booter]

Hearing today that an RCMP officer had an opportunity to go after the killer on the highway but didn't for fear of their own safety. Pretty much dominated talk radio today.

The quote you’re referring to is this:

Moments after the killer went by him, fleeing the scene, Peterson struggled to determine his next move

“I’m trying to decide, should I stop, slow down, talk to this person, or keep going?” Peterson would recall in an interview with commission lawyers.

“So, I said, ‘If I stop and this is the bad guy, I’m going to get shot here, I’m going to get killed. If I continue on, that will give me a chance to turn around and pursue him, or to do something,”‘ he told the interviewer.

He’s saying if he stopped to
Speak with the guy window to window he would get shot. He had to plan- so he turned around past him to initiate a pursuit

Which isn’t the same thing as is being suggested. I also have some issues with the response- but taking a scalpel to quotes to fit a narrative isn’t helpful for anyone,

That Fitbit one is terrible if true.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The quote you’re referring to is this:



He’s saying if he stopped to
Speak with the guy window to window he would get shot. He had to plan- so he turned around past him to initiate a pursuit

Which isn’t the same thing as is being suggested. I also have some issues with the response- but taking a scalpel to quotes to fit a narrative isn’t helpful for anyone,

That Fitbit one is terrible if true.

From what I listened to today the public isn't interpreting it that way.

I dunno, I wasn't there. But it's not the first time I've heard allegations of RCMP officers putting their own safety first WRT to this particular incident. I hope for the organizations sake that it's all just conjecture and rumor.

 

[Jarnhamar]

From what I listened to today the public isn't interpreting it that way.

I dunno, I wasn't there. But it's not the first time I've heard allegations of RCMP officers putting their own safety first WRT to this particular incident. I hope for the organizations sake that it's all just conjecture and rumor.

Long article on some of the issues.

A Tragedy of Errors: how RCMP mistakes, missteps, and miscommunications failed to contain a mass murderer​

 

[Halifax Tar]

Long article on some of the issues.

A Tragedy of Errors: how RCMP mistakes, missteps, and miscommunications failed to contain a mass murderer​

It's a huge shit sandwich no doubt about it.

Let's also not forget this is unprecedented.

Look at me cutting the cops some slack

 

[Booter]

It's a huge shit sandwich no doubt about it.

Let's also not forget this is unprecedented.

Look at me cutting the cops some slack

I’m no police apologist. I’ve testified against police- successfully. I also know butchered attempts at articulating decisions.

There is lots of lessons to be learned, LOTS of things. Lots of mistakes.

And anything resembling this- in size and scope will be equally nonsensical in response. By any agency on the planet.

Anyways- you guys are all very knowledgeable even if we don’t agree, I do find that interpretation of that quote interesting because I have a hard time reading it like that,

It was a cop who brought it to my attention- I tend not to follow this stuff closely knowing the circus an inquiry is. They read it the same way you folks are seeing it.

 

[Jarnhamar]

It's a huge shit sandwich no doubt about it.

Let's also not forget this is unprecedented.

Look at me cutting the cops some slack

Absolutely. It wouldn't be fair to criticize the RCMPs mistakes without taking into account the magnitude of the situation and their lack of training to deal with something like this. Mistakes happen but the key is to learn from them, and for that you need transparency.

Only learning 2 years later that police allegedly (with some pretty heavy indicators of truthfulness) left someone to die for 8 hours? And that report wasn't even in the commission’s summary of what happened? Hard not to ask what else has been left out of that commission and why.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Absolutely. It wouldn't be fair to criticize the RCMPs mistakes without taking into account the magnitude of the situation and their lack of training to deal with something like this.

But only learning 2 years later that police allegedly (with some pretty heavy indicators of truthfulness) left someone to die for 8 hours? And that report wasn't even in the commission’s summary of what happened? Hard not to ask what else has been left out of that commission and why.

Conspiracy or not there will always be questions about the incidents and the inquiry.

 

[Booter]

Absolutely. It wouldn't be fair to criticize the RCMPs mistakes without taking into account the magnitude of the situation and their lack of training to deal with something like this. Mistakes happen but the key is to learn from them, and for that you need transparency.

Only learning 2 years later that police allegedly (with some pretty heavy indicators of truthfulness) left someone to die for 8 hours? And that report wasn't even in the commission’s summary of what happened? Hard not to ask what else has been left out of that commission and why.

That 8 hours things is bloody weird.

 

[brihard]

From what I listened to today the public isn't interpreting it that way.

I dunno, I wasn't there. But it's not the first time I've heard allegations of RCMP officers putting their own safety first WRT to this particular incident. I hope for the organizations sake that it's all just conjecture and rumor.

My understanding of this is that he was driving on the road, saw an oncoming car that looked like a police cruiser. He knew the guy was in a replica cruiser. He knew other cops were out and were mobilized/mobilizing en masse from all over the province. He knew he wouldn’t necessarily know other officers to recognize them by sight. If he went head on on speculation he could be taking himself and another member out of the fight, or if it was the shooter he may just get himself killed (that’s how Heidi Stevenson was murdered). If he slowed down for a window chat with another cop and was wrong, he gets shot in the head at close range. If he rolled past to try to get a good look and confirm ID, the hope was then to call in the contact, rip around and pursue; his real weapon there being his radio. He had less time to make this decision than it took you to read this paragraph.

There’s no particularly good answer to this problem set. Any of them would be a roll of the dice with his life the wager. Tough to judge that. I don’t know what call I would make in his shoes. Not sure if any of us could.

That Fitbit one is terrible if true.

Yeah, this is the first I’m hearing of this one. I hope it’s not true, and if it is, I hope the commission can get to the bottom of it. That’s terrible.

 

[Haggis]

I dunno, I wasn't there. But it's not the first time I've heard allegations of RCMP officers putting their own safety first WRT to this particular incident. I hope for the organizations sake that it's all just conjecture and rumor.

Peace officer safety is essential to public safety. A disabled peace officer gives the attacker access to more weapons and ammo, a new vehicle with a complete comms setup and, maybe, a hostage.

There was not a single factor in the officer's favour that day. His best COA was to observe, confirm the identity of the occupant (friend or foe) and call for more cavalry before engaging in what may have been a one sided fight with a prepared and determined opponent who had already killed several.

 

[Lumber]

If this is accurate it's pretty terrible.

Mass shooting victim’s family says mother died hours after Mounties told EHS she was dead​

Her body was covered up but she allegedly lived for another 8 hours.

Adrenaline response, maybe? So much death and chaos that in the thick of it they truly believed she was deceased even when evidence the contrary was present?

 

[OldSolduer]

Adrenaline response, maybe? So much death and chaos that in the thick of it they truly believed she was deceased even when evidence the contrary was present?

I would not depend on a piece of technology to be honest. Just my opinion but tech can be faulty.

 

[brihard]

Peace officer safety is essential to public safety. A disabled peace officer gives the attacker access to more weapons and ammo, a new vehicle with a complete comms setup and, maybe, a hostage.

This. When the ERT guy and dog man killed that piece of shit in Enfield, he had Heidi’s gun. Don’t forget, good chance that the member who encountered him on the highway had a C8 in his car. That could have quickly become available to the shooter had he killed the member.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Yeah, this is the first I’m hearing of this one. I hope it’s not true, and if it is, I hope the commission can get to the bottom of it. That’s terrible.

It reads that the commission never included discussions about this incident. That triggered the family to launch and start posting on social medial about it.

Not including it (if it's accurate) looks bad.

Adrenaline response, maybe? So much death and chaos that in the thick of it they truly believed she was deceased even when evidence the contrary was present?

That makes sense. I can imagine they were pretty shook up and made some rash decisions when they weren't thinking clearly.

 

[Halifax Tar]

My understanding of this is that he was driving on the road, saw an oncoming car that looked like a police cruiser. He knew the guy was in a replica cruiser. He knew other cops were out and were mobilized/mobilizing en masse from all over the province. He knew he wouldn’t necessarily know other officers to recognize them by sight. If he went head on on speculation he could be taking himself and another member out of the fight, or if it was the shooter he may just get himself killed (that’s how Heidi Stevenson was murdered). If he slowed down for a window chat with another cop and was wrong, he gets shot in the head at close range. If he rolled past to try to get a good look and confirm ID, the hope was then to call in the contact, rip around and pursue; his real weapon there being his radio. He had less time to make this decision than it took you to read this paragraph.

There’s no particularly good answer to this problem set. Any of them would be a roll of the dice with his life the wager. Tough to judge that. I don’t know what call I would make in his shoes. Not sure if any of us could.



Yeah, this is the first I’m hearing of this one. I hope it’s not true, and if it is, I hope the commission can get to the bottom of it. That’s terrible.

Peace officer safety is essential to public safety. A disabled peace officer gives the attacker access to more weapons and ammo, a new vehicle with a complete comms setup and, maybe, a hostage.

There was not a single factor in the officer's favour that day. His best COA was to observe, confirm the identity of the occupant (friend or foe) and call for more cavalry before engaging in what may have been a one sided fight with a prepared and determined opponent who had already killed several.

The opinion on the street is not good. The public opinion I have been hearing seems to overwhelmingly be they (Police) are paid a mighty wage and should be expected to advance towards the danger and are expected to endure injury or death as part of the job.

As I said, I wasn't there. The officer made a decision and went with it. That's between him and himself now.

I truly think the rank and file did what they could.

 

[Booter]

Part of the grand reformation in use of force explanations and articulations was the use of language that actually expressed what it was to be “there”

Saying you were scared, describing your limitations, all those things are now actually part of how officers are trained.

When you see these things they are them trying to say- “I’ve been in Nova Scotia for 15 years and actually used my cuffs twice in the last five years- I do more school talks than fist fights. I just finished filling out the schedule when suddenly I was involved in a call of muderous rampage. My wife was messaging me to get milk when I had to suddenly be the trigger man for the first time in my life and it took me a second to understand my situation”

 

[Haggis]

The opinion on the street is not good. The public opinion I have been hearing seems to overwhelmingly be they (Police) are paid a mighty wage and should be expected to advance towards the danger and are expected to endure injury or death as part of the job.

100% get that. The stereotypical image of the hero cop is what people love. However, as I noted above, sacrificing yourself to give the shooter more weapons, ammo, a vehicle, a full comms suite (with which he could've spoofed responding units for hours) may have racked up the body count even higher.

The officer made a decision and went with it. That's between him and himself now.

That's the advantage enjoyed by the public. They have had almost two years now to determine what they believe is/was the proper COA in this instance. This Mountie had seconds to deal with an unprecedented (in Canada, at least) and entirely unforeseen event.

I truly think the rank and file did what they could.

The RCMP screwed up in many ways many times during (e.g. opening fire on a fire station) and after this event and there's a ton of good and bad reasons why they did. There were also many examples of things that went right, either on purpose or by accident.

What the public really needs is openness, and a fulsome accounting of what happened followed by properly funded concrete steps to prevent it from occurring again, as much as possible. Given our current political leadership, this is not what they'll get.

 

[Halifax Tar]

100% get that. The stereotypical image of the hero cop is what people love. However, as I noted above, sacrificing yourself to give the shooter more weapons, ammo, a vehicle, a full comms suite (with which he could've spoofed responding units for hours) may have racked up the body count even higher.

Its a complicated situation and honestly unless you're in that policeman's shoes at that time no one really knows. Like I said he made a decision and now he has to rest easy with that, and I hope he can.

That's the advantage enjoyed by the public. They have had almost two years now to determine what they believe is/was the proper COA in this instance. This Mountie had seconds to deal with an unprecedented (in Canada, at least) and entirely unforeseen event.

Absolutely agree.

The RCMP screwed up in many ways many times during this event and there's a ton of good and bad reasons why they did (e.g. opening fire on a fire station). There were also many examples of things that went right, either on purpose or by accident.

What the public really needs is openness, and a fulsome accounting of what happened followed by properly funded concrete steps to prevent it from occurring again, as much as possible. Given our current political leadership, this is not what they'll get.

The people want accountability and heads to roll for the mistakes that were made, and I think that's a fair expectation. The public is also suspecting conspiracy and intrigue at every corner. Its a messy situation.

 

[brihard]

The opinion on the street is not good. The public opinion I have been hearing seems to overwhelmingly be they (Police) are paid a mighty wage and should be expected to advance towards the danger and are expected to endure injury or death as part of the job.

As I said, I wasn't there. The officer made a decision and went with it. That's between him and himself now.

I truly think the rank and file did what they could.

The overwhelming majority of the public will never face the need to make decisions at all close to what those members faced.

Police are expected to move towards danger, and did so. Doesn’t mean that even the worst situation is going to be appropriately resolved by a kamikaze. And again, he had less time to make that call than it took you to write the first line of your post.

The expectation that police will willingly endure death for a paycheck is out of touch with reality, and there are plenty of people making more that we can send in first if that’s the criteria. We have as much right to preserve our lives as anyone. There’s no greater onus on us to deliberately sacrifice our lives than anyone else. We will still go deliberately into danger, and will face threats to our lives, but there’s no policing equivalent to “Charlie team, take the trench”. Every officer gets to make their own risk assessment and has the duty to make decisions based on law, policy, and their training and duties.

In this case, the member had a very fast decision to make with lots of variables. Confirming ID while keeping himself kinda safe (driving past a shooter isn’t by any means safe in an absolute sense) and trying to maintain continuity while calling in the sighting and directing backup is a good call. Unfortunately it didn’t work out. Remember that had he made another choice- go head on, or stop for a window chat- the immediate consequence could have been the member getting rounds in the head, and/or potentially a super shitty blue on blue. The chaotic element of the shooter driving a marked police car isn’t something that can be undersold for how badly it screws up a lot of other decision making.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The overwhelming majority of the public will never face the need to make decisions at all close to what those members faced.

Police are expected to move towards danger, and did so. Doesn’t mean that even the worst situation is going to be appropriately resolved by a kamikaze. And again, he had less time to make that call than it took you to write the first line of your post.

The expectation that police will willingly endure death for a paycheck is out of touch with reality, and there are plenty of people making more that we can send in first if that’s the criteria. We have as much right to preserve our lives as anyone. There’s no greater onus on us to deliberately sacrifice our lives than anyone else. We will still go deliberately into danger, and will face threats to our lives, but there’s no policing equivalent to “Charlie team, take the trench”. Every officer gets to make their own risk assessment and has the duty to make decisions based on law, policy, and their training and duties.

In this case, the member had a very fast decision to make with lots of variables. Confirming ID while keeping himself kinda safe (driving past a shooter isn’t by any means safe in an absolute sense) and trying to maintain continuity while calling in the sighting and directing backup is a good call. Unfortunately it didn’t work out. Remember that had he made another choice- go head on, or stop for a window chat- the immediate consequence could have been the member getting rounds in the head, and/or potentially a super shitty blue on blue. The chaotic element of the shooter driving a marked police car isn’t something that can be undersold for how badly it screws up a lot of other decision making.

Unlimited liability eh ? The difference between a civilian and soldier.