Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

[Haggis]

I’m going to, in a not excusing way, suggest that two guys in the dark spontaneously hunting a guy killing people dressed like a cop- who started their shift thinking they would catch up on paperwork and get a booster juice- may have some lag between their decision making and their training banks.

According to the article the firehall shooting occurred at 10:17 AM. Hardly dark, even in that corner of Nova Scotia.

 

[Booter]

Okay. it was light out. They probably didn’t get booster juice either.

The point is two regular guys at 10/10 floating above their bodies with their one day of shooting a year are not warriors or weapons. They are regular people responding to extraordinary circumstance.

I ve never shot at the wrong person. But it has happened.

But accuracy is important- and I was under the impression the fire hall shooting was in the dark. So that’s new to me

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Criminal responsibility/criminality vs dumb or poor/mistaken belief

Copy. This seems like a pretty high limbo bar to negotiate.

Thankfully, their (1) failure to gain PID and (2) questionable marksmanship didn’t result in an innocent person being wounded or killed.

 

[Booter]

Copy. This seems like a pretty high limbo bar to negotiate.

Thankfully, their (1) failure to gain PID and (2) questionable marksmanship didn’t result in an innocent person being wounded or killed.

It is for sure- and it can get quite abused. Like the association will hang their hat on those comments like it means more than it is.

Politics.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Atlantic region is a bit of a different mindset. I noted that in the response there were more than a few members who weren’t carbine trained.

There is alot of “give and take”
When it comes to their one day carbine recerts- “just a few weeks”. “Maybe next month” “risk it out”

Without speaking as an authority, and just anecdotally with my experience with the region- I would suspect a lot of the new members were trained from depot and some people supervising weren’t current or trained.

I’ll be curious to see if they touch on that in the inquiry

Crazy considering what the heck went down in Moncton.

I don't blame the members entirely, blame the institution for putting them in that situation without the proper training and assessment.

 

[Booter]

In fairness, since moving into financial/political positions- I have found that there is a lot of good people strung up by the bad budgetting of a decade ago.

We can all agree that something is necessary- but getting the money out of the governments, and getting the bodies available to allow for the training, can be contentious. Especially given that for literal decades Mounties did more with less- when we try to professionalize we meet a wall of questions about why it is necessary now- and not 20, 30, 40 years ago,

The east coast is especially susceptible to this because of the incredibly thin margins and lack of real ability to increase spending. There just isn’t money.

I would share some things about switching radio systems and public safety but it would embarrass people. We can’t do fundamentals in some places.

The raise actually did a number on our ability to meet some operational challenges because it further ate into existing budgets. Better for individuals. Not good for increasing staffing and equipment

 

[Jarnhamar]

The point is two regular guys at 10/10 floating above their bodies with their one day of shooting a year are not warriors or weapons. They are regular people responding to extraordinary circumstance.

Respectfully disagree here friend.
Police may not be warriors as you say (though I've spoken with enough that will argue they very much are) but they're still armed with pistols, shotguns, rifles (which the government says are just for murdering people), body armor, given training on dealing with other armed people, and finally are paid and expected to do so.

A cook in the military is given training on personal weapons, maybe basic tactics, and (should) qualify each year on an easy shoot. We say all CAF members are soldiers first (i.e they need to be able to fight) but it's accepted a cook isn't going to be using their gun outside of WW3.

Police officers driving around can be called upon to use their firearm at any time. These guys aren't regular people they're police who are paid to respond to disturbances including someone with a gun. I believe RCMP officers aren't considered civilians in the same respect members of the military aren't civilians. If these were cops regulated to desk duty and pressed into service I'd be more inclined to give them a pass but even then they're still trained more than the army cook to use guns.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Crazy considering what the heck went down in Moncton.

I don't blame the members entirely, blame the institution for putting them in that situation without the proper training and assessment.

LEOs with only sidearms would be “outgunned” in a lot of northern (rural?) NS on any day; a crossbow w/sight has better range than a hand-banger.

Honestly, I am bewildered there is an option to NOT have a rifle and/or good 12ga on patrol. Not just for crazy people, for injured/aggressive bears etc as well. Lots of stuff happens at night /low light. I’d be thinking “shit I wish I had a 12ga and some 00 right about now”.

Different strokes I guess. If it was me, I’d have a rifle and/or shotgun if I was able to. Different tools for different jobs.

 

[Booter]

Jarnhammer: (sorry I didn’t put your quote in) I expect them to respond. I expect them to go into danger and do their best. I am just aware of what the average person who trains once a year in an area with low call volume is capable of.

Maybe your expectation is too high in my eye, and my expectation is too low. I’m sure there are reasons for it,

I also taught in the military. I would not expect the average service person to fair better on a day a year with a spontaneous event. But I am jaded.

Many moons ago, I practiced a very particular action on contact when fighting indoors. I must have done this particular action 10s of thousands of times.

Then, I was sent elsewhere. Having completed this motion more than anyone else I could think of.

About 9 months later I was placed back in for fun on somethings, and a foundational thing I had done more than anyone else- didn’t happen when the circumstances required it. I misfired on my training.

It was funny and we all had a good laugh. Two or three reps in and I was slick again. But I can say that it changed my expectations of people I “re-certified”. Recert, current, doesn’t mean proficient.

Maybe I’m just bad at things.

I do appreciate the food for thought though.

 

[Booter]

Honestly, I am bewildered there is an option to NOT have a rifle and/or good 12ga on patrol. Not just for crazy people, for injured/aggressive bears etc as well. Lots of stuff happens at night /low light. I’d be thinking “shit I wish I had a 12ga and some 00 right about now”.

Different strokes I guess. If it was me, I’d have a rifle and/or shotgun if I was able to. Different tools for different jobs.

You may really like this then- there is an ongoing conversation about getting rid of
870s because of the cost to retrofit them with the new items they need (lights etc)

The last OIS shooting I had as an supervisor was a member with an 870 vs guy with pistol. It was effective.

But there is a
Belief it should be phased out

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

LEOs with only sidearms would be “outgunned” in a lot of northern (rural?) NS on any day; a crossbow w/sight has better range than a hand-banger.

Honestly, I am bewildered there is an option to NOT have a rifle and/or good 12ga on patrol. Not just for crazy people, for injured/aggressive bears etc as well. Lots of stuff happens at night /low light. I’d be thinking “shit I wish I had a 12ga and some 00 right about now”.

Different strokes I guess. If it was me, I’d have a rifle and/or shotgun if I was able to. Different tools for different jobs.

I grew up in Northern NB, they would be outgunned in pretty much any Rural Area where they showed up with only a handgun.

Respectfully disagree here friend.
Police may not be warriors as you say (though I've spoken with enough that will argue they very much are) but they're still armed with pistols, shotguns, rifles (which the government says are just for murdering people), body armor, given training on dealing with other armed people, and finally are paid and expected to do so.

A cook in the military is given training on personal weapons, maybe basic tactics, and (should) qualify each year on an easy shoot. We say all CAF members are soldiers first (i.e they need to be able to fight) but it's accepted a cook isn't going to be using their gun outside of WW3.

Police officers driving around can be called upon to use their firearm at any time. These guys aren't regular people they're police who are paid to respond to disturbances including someone with a gun. I believe RCMP officers aren't considered civilians in the same respect members of the military aren't civilians. If these were cops regulated to desk duty and pressed into service I'd be more inclined to give them a pass but even then they're still trained more than the army cook to use guns.

I would expect, at a minimum, these two would do a hatless dance in front of a conduct board and be disciplined for this.

Jarnhammer: (sorry I didn’t put your quote in) I expect them to respond. I expect them to go into danger and do their best. I am just aware of what the average person who trains once a year in an area with low call volume is capable of.

Maybe your expectation is too high in my eye, and my expectation is too low. I’m sure there are reasons for it,

I also taught in the military. I would not expect the average service person to fair better on a day a year with a spontaneous event. But I am jaded.

Many moons ago, I practiced a very particular action on contact when fighting indoors. I must have done this particular action 10s of thousands of times.

Then, I was sent elsewhere. Having completed this motion more than anyone else I could think of.

About 9 months later I was placed back in for fun on somethings, and a foundational thing I had done more than anyone else- didn’t happen when the circumstances required it. I misfired on my training.

It was funny and we all had a good laugh. Two or three reps in and I was slick again. But I can say that it changed my expectations of people I “re-certified”. Recert, current, doesn’t mean proficient.

Maybe I’m just bad at things.

I do appreciate the food for thought though.

I think there is a general misconception of what LEOs are capable of. That being said, were this the CAF, I can tell you with 100% certainty these two Officers would be charged for a Negligent Discharge and would be doing a hatless dance.

Had they injured/killed someone, they would be Court Martialled and would be facing jail time potentially.

Happened to a number of people overseas.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You may really like this then- there is an ongoing conversation about getting rid of
870s because of the cost to retrofit them with the new items they need (lights etc)

The last OIS shooting I had as an supervisor was a member with an 870 vs guy with pistol. It was effective.

But there is a
Belief it should be phased out

“Getting rid of” vs “replaced”?

 

[Booter]

I agree 100% HB.

 

[Booter]

“Getting rid of” vs “replaced”?

Mountie kit in 2002:
Pistol
Shotgun
.308

Mountie kit in this proposal:
Pistol
Carbine

There was a double take in Ottawa when they saw the cost to bring the shotguns up to speed apparently.

 

[Haggis]

I don't blame the members entirely, blame the institution for putting them in that situation without the proper training and assessment.

It's the same in almost every agency I've been in contact with.

During firearms training I tell our recruits "these skills are the ones you will use the least in your career but have the highest likelihood of saving your life or the lives of others. They are life skills and they are perishable and it's shared responsibility to maintain them."

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Mountie kit in 2002:
Pistol
Shotgun
.308

Mountie kit in this proposal:
Pistol
Carbine

There was a double take in Ottawa when they saw the cost to bring the shotguns up to speed apparently.

I am reminded of the incident in Bathurst a few years ago:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/bathurst-police-arbitration-hearing-decision-vienneau-death-1.5392483

I actually grew up with one of the Officer's in question.

Looking at the facts, those two were very lucky they were City Cops in NB and not subject to something like the CSD of the CAF otherwise I suspect they would have received a different judgement for their actions and would no longer be carrying a badge.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

It's the same in almost every agency I've been in contact with.

During firearms training I tell our recruits "these skills are the ones you will use the least in your career but have the highest likelihood of saving your life or the lives of others. They are life skills and they are perishable and it's shared responsibility to maintain them."

Hence why I think we need a different set of rules re: weapons for LEOs and Military Members WRT what they can own and train with civvy side.

Can't maintain the skills if you can't even own a civilian variant of the National Service Rifle.

 

[Haggis]

Had they injured/killed someone, they would be Court Martialled and would be facing jail time potentially.

Happened to a number of people overseas.

Happens in Canada, too.

 

[Haggis]

Hence why I think we need a different set of rules re: weapons for LEOs and Military Members WRT what they can own and train with civvy side.

Can't maintain the skills if you can't even own a civilian variant of the National Service Rifle.

In response to an injunction filed against the Liberal "assault style weapons" ban, the Federal Court has ruled that LEOs receive sufficient training provided by their agencies.

"Loss of Skill-Building Opportunities

[52] The Applicants argue that law enforcement officers or members of the Canadian Armed Forces will suffer a decline in their shooting skills without access to the firearms prohibited by the Regulations. They filed the affidavit evidence of Mr. Matthew Overton, President of Dominion of Canada Rifle Association [DCRA] and that of Mr. Ryan Steacy, Technical Director at International Barrels Inc., and a retired Corporal of the Canadian Armed Forces. They testified to the fact that civilian sport shooters develop techniques that they then teach to military personnel during competitions between members of military, police, and civilians, which are organized by DCRA.

However and as noted by Mr. Murray Smith (COMMENT: former head of the RCMP Specialized Firearms Support Services Section), also a former member of the military, the only individuals truly affected by the Regulations are the civilians competing with civilian versions of military or law enforcement service weapons. Law enforcement officers and members of the Canadian Armed Forces have prescribed training programs and they have access to ranges where they can train with their service weapons. The Court agrees with the Respondent that participation in civilian shooting competitions is not required for Canadian Armed Forces, or other law enforcement members.

[54] There is no compelling evidence that the shooting skills of Canadian Armed Forces members or law enforcement officers will decline as a result of the Regulations."

Despite that the firearms training given to the military is intended to impart a Minimum Level of Capability (MLOC), it is a standard attainable by the vast majority of CAF members. Much like railing against the "low" standards of the FORCE test, folks fail to understand and accept that both are an absolute minimum required in order to do your day-to-day job. With no opportunities to train with an AR platform while "off the clock", it will be interesting to see if there is any quantifiable decrease in shooting skills across the LE and CAF communities in the coming years.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

In response to an injunction filed against the Liberal "assault style weapons" ban, the Federal Court has ruled that LEOs receive sufficient training provided by their agencies.

"Loss of Skill-Building Opportunities

[52] The Applicants argue that law enforcement officers or members of the Canadian Armed Forces will suffer a decline in their shooting skills without access to the firearms prohibited by the Regulations. They filed the affidavit evidence of Mr. Matthew Overton, President of Dominion of Canada Rifle Association [DCRA] and that of Mr. Ryan Steacy, Technical Director at International Barrels Inc., and a retired Corporal of the Canadian Armed Forces. They testified to the fact that civilian sport shooters develop techniques that they then teach to military personnel during competitions between members of military, police, and civilians, which are organized by DCRA.

However and as noted by Mr. Murray Smith (COMMENT: former head of the RCMP Specialized Firearms Support Services Section), also a former member of the military, the only individuals truly affected by the Regulations are the civilians competing with civilian versions of military or law enforcement service weapons. Law enforcement officers and members of the Canadian Armed Forces have prescribed training programs and they have access to ranges where they can train with their service weapons. The Court agrees with the Respondent that participation in civilian shooting competitions is not required for Canadian Armed Forces, or other law enforcement members.

[54] There is no compelling evidence that the shooting skills of Canadian Armed Forces members or law enforcement officers will decline as a result of the Regulations."

Despite that the firearms training given to the military is intended to impart a Minimum Level of Capability (MLOC), it is a standard attainable by the vast majority of CAF members. Much like railing against the "low" standards of the FORCE test, folks fail to understand and accept that both are an absolute minimum required in order to do your day-to-day job. With no opportunities to train with an AR platform while "off the clock", it will be interesting to see if there is any quantifiable decrease in shooting skills across the LE and CAF communities in the coming years.

Oh I know their rationale, which is why I will be glad when I am no longer working for them.... very soon

I'm not going to continue to be culpable in our institutional incompetence.