After Afghanistan - What Will Canada Do With Its Army?

[bdave]

We're soldiers. Plain and simple. We are not garbage pickers, nor snow removal specialists. The cities and towns of Canada are the experts in that area.
Peacekeeping, at least the one I'm familar with, is something we are good at because we are soldiers and damn good ones at that. To be used willy nilly because we aren't at war or training for one will see our troops leave the military in droves.
Trust me on that one.

I would agree with this. If I had wanted to pick up trash I would have gone a different route.

 

[SeanNewman]

You are agreeing with me on my main point that our job is to be soldiers first.  Nowhere has anyone suggested that is not the case.

However, my point is that it's possible there won't always be a war to fight.  So if you're not at war, is an Army realistically going to be able to afford training for war around the clock all year?  Absolutely not.  You might think it's the best thing, but to give the reg force and reserves a SOF type budget of unlimited ammo and fuel is not going to happen.

Your counterpoint may be "There's all sorts of fieldcraft training like occupying a patrol base and map and compass you can do for free" and I would 100% agree with that, but the point is that you can not do that every day forever.

At some point the time would come when we are 100% high readiness trained for war but not fighting a war, and the government would either say "We're putting you to work" or "We're cutting you in half because this is too expensive".

I go back to my firefighter example.  If there's a fire, that's their job.  If there's no fire, they can train to fight fires but not around the clock; at some point they will be required to do other things.

 

[George Wallace]

Sweep out the firehall.  Wash the firetruck.  Perform maint on their equipment.  Polish the brass.  Take courses to upgrade their skills.  Do PT to stay in shape.  Sounds familiar.

 

[MarkOttawa]

More at The Torch:

Canadians and the CF: The Boy Scout syndrome
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2010/04/canadians-and-cf-boy-scout-syndrome.html

The CF and the Congo [several links]
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2010/04/cf-and-congo.html

...
Updateeacekeepingnik Prof. Walter Dorn gives the Congo case here (more here and here on the professor and UN-mongering).

Upperdate: Now who'd a thunk it? Prof. Dorn is a senior advisor at St. Steve Staples' Rideau Institute. 'Nuff said.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[PPCLI Guy]

However, my point is that it's possible there won't always be a war to fight.  So if you're not at war, is an Army realistically going to be able to afford training for war around the clock all year?  Absolutely not.  .

I realise that you are relatively new at this - please remember that the Army spent from 1953 to 2002 "not at war" (with apologies to Cyprus 74 and Medak vets). 

It is THAT Army, and THOSE NCOs who did so well from 2002-2010.  We know how to do this in between wars thing.

A little historical perspective might help shape this debate somewhat.

My 2 cents, that was worth 5 when I joined the Reserves as a private in 1980, and 3 cents when I transferred to the Regs in 1988.

 

[SevenSixTwo]

I believe people just doubt the ISAF's capabilities without the U.S. and Canada. Who is going to step up and replace those troops?

What also sucks is the amount of money we are going to lose to funding etc. Maybe, we won't have to have cut funding if enough tour monkeys quit.

Let's just hope it isn't the 1980's again.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Same with the Army...there's no reason Canada can't say "We see the value in you, but we don't have any urgent use for you right now so you can do _________ for us because we'd like it and you're getting paid anyway".


So I'm guessing you're perfectly okay going down to the wash rack on base and mucking out the mud pits when you've got no highly important desk work to do?  I'd like to see my tax dollars go to that.

 

[The Bread Guy]

FYI, Rex Murphy's "Cross Country Checkup" on CBC Radio 1 just starting is all about this question:

Canada plans to pull its combat troops out of Afghanistan in 2011. US secretary of state Hillary Clinton ...and many Afghans want them to stay.

What do you think should Canada reconsider its role?

checkup@cbc.ca
1-888-416-8333

 

[SeanNewman]

I realise that you are relatively new at this - please remember that the Army spent from 1953 to 2002 "not at war" (with apologies to Cyprus 74 and Medak vets). 

It is THAT Army, and THOSE NCOs who did so well from 2002-2010.  We know how to do this in between wars thing.

A little historical perspective might help shape this debate somewhat.

No, my friend, it would appear you may be relatively new at this.

Perhaps you will remember a country called Germany where for decades, far more soldiers were at high notice to move for all-out-war against the Russians than ever served on peace keeping tours.

Not officially a war, but make no mistake that was the CF's main effort during the time frame you stated.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

However, my point is that it's possible there won't always be a war to fight.  So if you're not at war, is an Army realistically going to be able to afford training for war around the clock all year?  Absolutely not.  You might think it's the best thing, but to give the reg force and reserves a SOF type budget of unlimited ammo and fuel is not going to happen.

Isn't that the point of having a full time military? ???  To train for the eventuality that conflict MAY occur?  Rest assured, the planet isn't going to stop sucking any time soon.  Something will pop up.  How about let guys rest, re-cock, get some leadership courses, trade quals out of the way before you sign your men up to stuff fliers into news papers?  I think the CF's demonstrated record of quality stands on its own.  I think (hope) the citizenry would be a bit dismayed to see people being pressed into duties way outside their arcs. 

At some point the time would come when we are 100% high readiness trained for war but not fighting a war, and the government would either say "We're putting you to work" or "We're cutting you in half because this is too expensive".

Again, I'm hoping that with hind sight and experience, all governments (the ones that matter anyway) will recognize that allowing another Liberal Decade of Darkness to occur is short sighted in the extreme and ultimately more expensive when you are scrambling to put together a multi-year mission. 

I go back to my firefighter example.  If there's a fire, that's their job.  If there's no fire, they can train to fight fires but not around the clock; at some point they will be required to do other things.

At the risk of seeming untoward with respects to my fire brethren, you should actually take a look at what a typical firefighters day consists of.  Once you get the station duties squared away and deal with lots of idiotic false alarms, it can be a pretty cushy go.  You sort of need a better example, since the fire guys are kind of legendary for being paid to sleep, cook and make nudey calendars  ;D

No, my friend, it would appear you may be relatively new at this.

Awesome.  Just awesome.  op:

Ya, guy!  What, have you been in the Army for, like, a week or something?  :clown:

 

[GAP]

You really don't have 2 clues.......do you.... :rofl:

 

[SeanNewman]

Ya, guy!  What, have you been in the Army for, like, a week or something?  :clown:

A bit longer than that, I just got done BMOQ-L.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Valid observation wrt the Cold War. 

Perhaps I will narrow the time-frame somewhat to the period from the late 80s through to 2001 - the Pl WOs and Sect Comds of 2006-2010 were forged during that period - a period during which, despite a war, hot or cold, declared or undeclared, valuable individual and collective training occurred, along with operations both domestic and international.

My point is that we did not throw up our hands, in the absence of a war, cold or hot, down tools, and become a general labour pool for the government.  Rather we laboured at our craft, and hence were able to respond to the call when it came.  That is what professionals do.

I would venture to bet that we will both serve overseas a number of times between now and retirement, and that little if any of that time will be spent in a Chapter 6 peacekeeping role.  More likely, we will be involved in all manner of operations that will tend to the right hand side of the spectrum of conflict.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

A bit longer than that, I just got done BMOQ-L.

Not you.  It was a facetious comment made to the very senior member you are trying to belittle  (and I'm not being an ageist either)

 

[SeanNewman]

Not you.  It was a facetious comment made to the very senior member you are trying to belittle  (and I'm not being an ageist either)

Ahhh.  Personally I don't care how much experience someone has if they are wrong (I'm not saying that's what happened here).  If I say "1+1=3" someone in basic training is more than right to come on here and say "You are wrong".

Tours and time in is context and experience, not automatically being correct.

So that being said, I still don't see what you guys are so upset about in terms of defending our role.

I have said numerous times that our primary role is to fight wars.  I have said numerous times that when not fighting wars, our primary focus should be preparing to fight wars.

The only thing you guys are getting ruffled over is the "then what" part.  You can not convince me that during peace time an Army will have the budget to do 365-day combat training, so what then?  If we are still conducting war refresher training in order to stay topped up, the taxpayer has a 100% right to expect us to earn our our money being more useful than coming in twice a day to do PT and get sent home for months.

 

[regulator12]

Petamocto You can bet that once Afghanistan will be over WE WILL be gearing up for another hot spot in the world.  As part of the UN and Nato we have a mandate to contribute to sanctioned missions.  So the short down time we will have can be utilized to rest refit and train up our soldiers.  And of course during peace time an army doesn't have the budget that is around during war time.  But were do you see peace? When is this "peace time" coming. Last time i checked the world is still pretty hostile and in need of assistance.  Rest assured Canada will contribute something somewhere.  Rest and refit doesn't have to mean we stop all operations it means we can utilize the resources we have more efficiently.

 

[tango22a]

Gentlemen:

At the risk of being accused (probably correctly) of being an old dinosaur, disconnected from what is happening TODAY, let me tell you that when the draw down from A'Stan occurs the first thing you will see is a massive slashing of the CF's budget.

As you should know the CF budget is the first place cuts will be made. The Canadian public has no BELIEF  in Peacemaking and only will support Peacekeeping under the aegis of the UN. Joe Taxpayer would rather see the CF run on a shoe string and the money diverted to other purposes.

This shortsightedness will lead to the loss of a large percentage of the best and brightest in the CF due to not being willing to operate like this as we did in the past. If one looks back over the years, one can see that once a conflict is ended there is a prevalent demand to harvest the mythical "Peace Dividend" and cut /slash the "bloated" CF Budget.

I could be wrong (and hope I am!), BUT, after watching the CF Roller Coaster for over fifty years, and riding along for twenty-three years, this is all I can foresee for us in the future. You just watch.... the boys in the Treasury Board already have their machetes sharpened to slash and burn our budget.



tango22a


Edited for clarity

 

[SeanNewman]

Regulator,

My arguments have not been about where I think we are going, only based on a hypothetical "if nothing else is going on..." scenario.

I have full confidence that our government will send us elsewhere in a peace support-type operation, but that's not what I'm debating here.

Some people are insisting that the military is above doing mundane tasks if there was nothing else going on.

 

[Loachman]

No, my friend, it would appear you may be relatively new at this.

Now that is the funniest thing that I've read since....


Hmmmm....


Well, a very long time anyway.

 

[SeanNewman]

It was intentionally silly, sort of like a high school basketball player asking Michael Jordan who he is.

It doesn't change the fact that someone can be wrong though, and I'll be the first to admit when I am wrong to a junior.