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Limpy
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Wow Wes. You remind me of my uncle, he had the same line of work in his RCEME days. He was one of the guys that had the thankless task of chopping up the Bren guns. Anyway what can you say about the 5.45mm rounds being frowned apon by the U.N. and NATO. I heard this ammunition likes to tumble allot and causes nasty little wounds, and is the 5.56mm much like it or less prone to tumbling?
Troopasaurus
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The reason why the 5.45 round has a nasty tendancy to tumble is because they are hollowpoint rounds.
""to gain maximum effect from the 5.45mm bullet the designers have adopted a design that is very effective but outlawed by interational convention, for the steel-cored projectile has a hollow tip and the center of gravity far towards the rear to maintain the forward impetus and so tumple the bullet. In this way the small calibre bullet can have an effext on a target far in the excess of its cross sectional area." - straight from"The complete encyclopedia of modern military weapons"
In the M16 round this effect just occurs because of the velocity making the round unstable in flight (which may have been adjusted just for this effect - to cause massive damage while not relying on glaser rounds). The round the Russian designers made is specificly designed to tumble. UN and NATO do not like this because there is a treaty against the use of the glaser rounds and hollow points are considered glaser rounds. glaser rounds are any type of round that expands to cause more damage the ban only apply's to militaries using them against each other and obviously does not apply to terrorists and the like. This is also the reason why cutting notches into rounds is a offense in the military as it causes the round to expand.
kind of garbled but hopefully you get the point
:cam:
""to gain maximum effect from the 5.45mm bullet the designers have adopted a design that is very effective but outlawed by interational convention, for the steel-cored projectile has a hollow tip and the center of gravity far towards the rear to maintain the forward impetus and so tumple the bullet. In this way the small calibre bullet can have an effext on a target far in the excess of its cross sectional area." - straight from"The complete encyclopedia of modern military weapons"
In the M16 round this effect just occurs because of the velocity making the round unstable in flight (which may have been adjusted just for this effect - to cause massive damage while not relying on glaser rounds). The round the Russian designers made is specificly designed to tumble. UN and NATO do not like this because there is a treaty against the use of the glaser rounds and hollow points are considered glaser rounds. glaser rounds are any type of round that expands to cause more damage the ban only apply's to militaries using them against each other and obviously does not apply to terrorists and the like. This is also the reason why cutting notches into rounds is a offense in the military as it causes the round to expand.
kind of garbled but hopefully you get the point
:cam:
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The 5.45 rd has a trajectory as straight as an arrow (as does the 5.56 too). Like all projectiles it tumbles when it hits mass, as does the 7.62 projectile also.Upon exiting mass the 7.62 projectile comes out backwords still carrying much of its energy!
Where as the 5.45 and 5.56 SS109 tumbles on impact, it dumps its energy into the mass, causing a large permanant cavity compared to the 7.62. Also frags of the jacket produce further injuries to organs, bone, and tissue. There is much energy dumped, but whats left also comes out reverse, causing a large exit hole too.
Fact, yes there is a small airspace in the 5.45 bullet, but so does the 5.56mm SS109 too. So who's copying who? I have cutaways of both types, and the ever so small airspace exists. I also have all the tabulated data on gelitin tests too. Interesting stuff.
In the long run, the effect of shock and trauma caused is effextive beyond doubt.
Anyways, I am jet lagged out and now gonna hit the farter and crash. Tomorrow is another day.
Cheers,
Wes
Where as the 5.45 and 5.56 SS109 tumbles on impact, it dumps its energy into the mass, causing a large permanant cavity compared to the 7.62. Also frags of the jacket produce further injuries to organs, bone, and tissue. There is much energy dumped, but whats left also comes out reverse, causing a large exit hole too.
Fact, yes there is a small airspace in the 5.45 bullet, but so does the 5.56mm SS109 too. So who's copying who? I have cutaways of both types, and the ever so small airspace exists. I also have all the tabulated data on gelitin tests too. Interesting stuff.
In the long run, the effect of shock and trauma caused is effextive beyond doubt.
Anyways, I am jet lagged out and now gonna hit the farter and crash. Tomorrow is another day.
Cheers,
Wes
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AI2003,
Do you have a clue what you are talking about?
All boattail bullets yaw when they hit media, depending upon construction and the impact velocity some bullets (5.56mm in general) will fragment (this is achieved at lower impact velocities in bullets with a cannelure - due to its inherint weakening of the bullet jacket). Longer bullets (i.e. the US Mk262 Mod0 and Mod1 77gr OTM rounds will have more forces directed upon them and will reliably fragemnet in humna tissue at velocities lower than M855/SS109 rounds.
If you look at Sov bloc wound track of &.62x39 and 5.45x39 bullets they typically yaw and do not fragement.
Anyway I am to tired to deliver a lesson in terminal ballistics - for a comprehensive open source link please see. http://www.ammo-oracle.com/
Do you have a clue what you are talking about?
All boattail bullets yaw when they hit media, depending upon construction and the impact velocity some bullets (5.56mm in general) will fragment (this is achieved at lower impact velocities in bullets with a cannelure - due to its inherint weakening of the bullet jacket). Longer bullets (i.e. the US Mk262 Mod0 and Mod1 77gr OTM rounds will have more forces directed upon them and will reliably fragemnet in humna tissue at velocities lower than M855/SS109 rounds.
If you look at Sov bloc wound track of &.62x39 and 5.45x39 bullets they typically yaw and do not fragement.
Anyway I am to tired to deliver a lesson in terminal ballistics - for a comprehensive open source link please see. http://www.ammo-oracle.com/
P
Pugnacious
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Great link thanx!
Cheers!
P.
Cheers!
P.
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Wesley, I look forward to seeing that data
In addition the US Army Virtual Hospital has some excellent wound track data online as well - I don't have a link here, as I am on a borrowed laptop while out east.
When I get back on my home computer I will dig it up.
In addition the US Army Virtual Hospital has some excellent wound track data online as well - I don't have a link here, as I am on a borrowed laptop while out east.
When I get back on my home computer I will dig it up.
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No worries Kevin. I dont fly back to Aussie for 3wks, but I will post the info. Good reading. The 1st AK74s I seen were Factory 10s from Bulgaria. Sloppy but nice. The East German MPiKMS in 7.62 were the best quality ever. Like the BMWs of the AK world. These ones were from the SAS, enroute for smelt because of headspace problems.
Well, just got in with a gut full of northern pike, elk and deer, plus Saskatoon berry pie! Yes and after about 10 shots of CC, I am ready for bed. Lets hopw this dampens my jet lag, which is still haunting me.
Cheers,
Wes
Well, just got in with a gut full of northern pike, elk and deer, plus Saskatoon berry pie! Yes and after about 10 shots of CC, I am ready for bed. Lets hopw this dampens my jet lag, which is still haunting me.
Cheers,
Wes
Troopasaurus
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KevinB said:
Well I obviously did not know as much as i thought i did, thanks for the link it was very informative. I stand corrected with my post.
(edt. for spelling)
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Basically, the AK-47 is the Russian's improvement on the German's MP44. If you take a look a the two, they look remarkably similar.....Russian Ingenuity my Arse. The AK was designed to be able to be fixed in any Afghani Mud Hut, or bat cave, and does its task to the Letter. It is a very solid weapon, with a good action. The Bullet used makes alot of sense, a large stopping round, but with a much lower range than the 7.62 NATO. It is also a takeoff of the German "Kurz" round, which had a very short casing for the typical 7.92mm round of the day. Expected to be used at ranged under 400m. German weapon designers were way ahead of any Allied concepts, and we seem to be following what they were doing back before WW2, today. When do you take a pop at someone over 400m? The AK family is NATO's lost chance. Though the AK-47 may be crude, its younger sibling, the AK-74 is a much improved weapon. Firing the Warsaw Pact's version of NATO's 5.56mm round,their 5.45mm, it is again meant for closer ranges, which is what seems to be prevailing conflict ranges of this day.
So AK-74 vs C7? There is about a 25 year design difference, so you really cant compare the two. Even if you take the latest version of the 74, against the latest verson of the C7, there is still a 30 year difference (The C7A2 being designed shortly after the turn of the Millenium).
So AK-74 vs C7? There is about a 25 year design difference, so you really cant compare the two. Even if you take the latest version of the 74, against the latest verson of the C7, there is still a 30 year difference (The C7A2 being designed shortly after the turn of the Millenium).
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AK 74. This is the Russian contribution to the new generation of smaller caliber assault rifles. The bullet does not deform or fragment in soft tissue but yaws early (after about 7 cm of penetration). As this bullet strikes soft tissue, lead flows forward filling the air space inside the bullet's tip. X-rays of recovered fired bullets show that this "internal deformation" produces an asymmetrical bullet which may explain the unusual curve of close to 90 ° made by the bullet path in the latter part of its penetration.
AK 47. This was the standard rifle used by the communist forces in Vietnam and is used today very widely throughout the world. The long path through tissue before marked yaw begins (about 25 cm) explains the clinical experience that many wounds from this weapon resemble those caused by much lower velocity handguns.
7.62 NATO cartridge with full-metal-cased military bullet. This was the standard U.S. Army rifle until the adoption of the M-16 in the 1960's. It is still used in snipers' rifles and machine guns. After about 16 cm of penetration, this bullet yaws through 90 ° and travles base-forward. A large temporary cavity is formed and occurs at point of maximum yaw
22 Long Rifle. This solid lead round-nosed bullet yaws through 90 ° and travels base-forward for the last half of its tissue path
22 Caliber full-metal-cased (M-16 rifle firing M-193 bullet). This is the standard weapon of the U.S. Armed Forces, although it is soon to be replaced by a new rifle using the same caliber and cartridge but with a longer and slightly heavier (62 grain) bullet.
From the Virtual Naval Hospital http://www.vnh.org/
They did not have data for any of the new rounds -- I have a bunch of close source terminal effects data from our cousins down south if CF guys want, email me on the DIN.
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As Taken from "Combat Guns" - David Donald and Chris Bishop, of Aerospace Publishing
on the AK-74, and the 5.45mm round (Note this book was written in 1987)
"The Soviet Union was surprisingly slow in following the Western adoption of small-calibre cartridges for its future weapon designs. Perhaps the huge numbers of AK-47s and AKMs already in service made such a change a low priority, so it was not until the early 1970s that any intimation of a new Warsaw Pact cartridge was given. IN time it emerged that the new cartridge had a calibre of 5.45mm X 39 and the first examples of a new weapon to fire it were noted. In time the weapon emerged as the AK-74, which is now in full-scale production to meet the requirements of the Red Army; in time it can be expected that the AK-74 will be issued to other Warsaw Pact armed forces.
The AK-74 is nothing more than an AKM revised to suit the new cartridge. It is almost identical to the AKM in appearance, weight and overall dimensions. Some changes, such as a plastic magazine, have been introduced and there is a prominent muzzle brake. There are versions with the usual wooden stocks and with a folding metal stock.
One matter relating to the AK-74 that deserves special mention is the bullet used. To gain maximum effect from the 5.45mm calibre bullet the designers have adopted a design that is very effective, but outlawed by international convention, for the steel-cored projectile has a hollow tip and the centre of gravity is far to the rear. This has the effect that when the nose strikes a target the nose deforms, allowing the weight towards the rear to maintain the forward impetus and so tumble the bullet. In this way the small-calibre bullet can have an effect on a target far in excess of its cross-sectional area. Same high-velocity projectiles can display this nasty effect, but some, such at the M193 5.56mm cartridge, it is an unintended by-product. on the Soviet 5.45mm the effect has been deliberately designed into the projectile. International conventions have for many years outlawed such "Dum-Dum" bullets and its various progeny, but to date no corresponding strictures appear to have been forthcoming regarding the 5.45mm bullet.
Calibre: 5.45mm
Length: 930mm
Length of Barrel: 400mm
Weight Unloaded: 3.6kg
Magazine: 30rd Box
Rate of Fire: 650 RPM
Muzzle velocity: 900m per second"
on the AK-74, and the 5.45mm round (Note this book was written in 1987)
"The Soviet Union was surprisingly slow in following the Western adoption of small-calibre cartridges for its future weapon designs. Perhaps the huge numbers of AK-47s and AKMs already in service made such a change a low priority, so it was not until the early 1970s that any intimation of a new Warsaw Pact cartridge was given. IN time it emerged that the new cartridge had a calibre of 5.45mm X 39 and the first examples of a new weapon to fire it were noted. In time the weapon emerged as the AK-74, which is now in full-scale production to meet the requirements of the Red Army; in time it can be expected that the AK-74 will be issued to other Warsaw Pact armed forces.
The AK-74 is nothing more than an AKM revised to suit the new cartridge. It is almost identical to the AKM in appearance, weight and overall dimensions. Some changes, such as a plastic magazine, have been introduced and there is a prominent muzzle brake. There are versions with the usual wooden stocks and with a folding metal stock.
One matter relating to the AK-74 that deserves special mention is the bullet used. To gain maximum effect from the 5.45mm calibre bullet the designers have adopted a design that is very effective, but outlawed by international convention, for the steel-cored projectile has a hollow tip and the centre of gravity is far to the rear. This has the effect that when the nose strikes a target the nose deforms, allowing the weight towards the rear to maintain the forward impetus and so tumble the bullet. In this way the small-calibre bullet can have an effect on a target far in excess of its cross-sectional area. Same high-velocity projectiles can display this nasty effect, but some, such at the M193 5.56mm cartridge, it is an unintended by-product. on the Soviet 5.45mm the effect has been deliberately designed into the projectile. International conventions have for many years outlawed such "Dum-Dum" bullets and its various progeny, but to date no corresponding strictures appear to have been forthcoming regarding the 5.45mm bullet.
Calibre: 5.45mm
Length: 930mm
Length of Barrel: 400mm
Weight Unloaded: 3.6kg
Magazine: 30rd Box
Rate of Fire: 650 RPM
Muzzle velocity: 900m per second"
C
commando_wolf63
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the C7 came out after my release I trained with the FNC1 I was surprised that the British version of the same rifle had its own breech block with the serial number ingraved to match it's own rifle where as the Canadian version the breech block was interchangeable.
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Matching Breech Blocks with their proper receiver, from the beginning is the best way to go. There are tiny differences between each different Breech Block, and are made to fit their matched rifle perfectly. Interchanging Breech Blocks with different weapons form different grooves in the receiver, as well as in the breech block. Over time, it engraves so many grooves, that it decreases the performance, and accuracy of the weapon. Halfcock proved this it Vietnam, when he matches a Browning .50 with the match Breech Block, and made shots which were unheard of at the time. Especially when you're talking about using a .50 machinegun on semi-automatic.
The problem of swapping bolts has been fixed with the Armalite-style Bolt carriers, as they are round and smooth, and do not cause grooves like the old C1, FN FAL, and L1A1 Breech Blocks did.
The problem of swapping bolts has been fixed with the Armalite-style Bolt carriers, as they are round and smooth, and do not cause grooves like the old C1, FN FAL, and L1A1 Breech Blocks did.
go back and find a new hobby their data is flawed, repetion of urban legend.
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Well, I'm not a weapons tech nor am I a weapons freak BUT we do bi-annual training on foreign weapons (as many of you may do) and from that I must say, without actually firing an AK series weapon, I don't fully understand why we haven't adopted the weapon here in Canada. I haven't heard of anyone every suffering a stopage (and even the cleanest C7 will jam for unexplainable reasons). It's interchangeability between models (AK74 aside if I'm not mistaken) is second to none and they are more cost effective.
The only problem I see behind adopting it here would be from a political stand point. I think that the folks on Parliament Hill don't like the stigma attached to the AK series and would sooner spend at least 4 or 5 times as much on a more civilized appearing, western model.
My 2 cents.
How about that SKS! Now there's a rifle...
The only problem I see behind adopting it here would be from a political stand point. I think that the folks on Parliament Hill don't like the stigma attached to the AK series and would sooner spend at least 4 or 5 times as much on a more civilized appearing, western model.
My 2 cents.
How about that SKS! Now there's a rifle...
P
Pugnacious
Guest
You have a good point about politics.
If this is a factor then I hope it changes, as the rest of the world is moving on past the cold war (mostly).
BTW The Finish use these slick much better I'm told versions of the AK...
http://www.valmet-weapons.com/Sakoseriespage1.html
I'd love to try one, and I have heard only good things about them.
Prob' work quite nice in our simular weather conditions, and enviroment.
Cheers!
P.
If this is a factor then I hope it changes, as the rest of the world is moving on past the cold war (mostly).
BTW The Finish use these slick much better I'm told versions of the AK...
http://www.valmet-weapons.com/Sakoseriespage1.html
I'd love to try one, and I have heard only good things about them.
Prob' work quite nice in our simular weather conditions, and enviroment.
Cheers!
P.
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IIRC (damn mess tins) when the initial SARP was conducted to replace the FN, one of the contenders, along with the FN CAL, HK & C7/M-16 was a 5.56mm version of the AK, either the Valmet or perhaps the Soth African R4/Isrerali Galil.
Can't recall for sure though as wasn't part of the testing.
Can't recall for sure though as wasn't part of the testing.
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