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All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)

daftandbarmy

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Found this interesting article from last summer on the RAND site. Seems like in some cases some existing AAD systems are not as effective as advertised.

https://www.rand.org/blog/2020/07/drone-era-warfare-shows-the-operational-limits-of-air.html

Certainly doesn't mean we should not make the urgent investment in badly need AAD systems, but definitely something to keep in mind when looking at the overall "system of systems" when balancing our offensive and defensive capabilities.

The best anti-air systems are like Ogres: they have layers :)

shrek GIF
 

FJAG

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The best anti-air systems are like Ogres: they have layers :)

shrek GIF
Besides the complete lack of any layers in Canada, the emergence and prevalence of guided munitions as a system to take out high value targets has really opened up the fact that there is a lack of a layer to deal with the small, inexpensive and swarming things that now fill the sky. As far back as Gulf War 1 most of our doctrine called for a an opening phase where we took out air defence systems so that our superior air power had full play. While once that might have been the role of aviation, special forces, specialized air delivered munitions and other long range deep strikes, we haven't changed our strategy much while other, smaller countries with smaller budgets, have become inventive.

My understanding is that GBAD which at best was set for a 2026 delivery has been pushed back substantially from that date.

I've said it before, we should at least lease some Avengers from the US so that we can revive our GBAD skills, knowledge and technical C&C base with these as training aids until the new systems come on line. By 2030 or whatever, there won't be an AD gunner left in the CAF.

Quite frankly looking backward at how we have squandered time and resources at preparing for the wrong type of conflict shedding capabilities and corporate knowledge left and right ever since we left our role in Europe, I see very little hope for the future. It's a good thing Canada has a very large moat around it.

🤔
 

daftandbarmy

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Besides the complete lack of any layers in Canada, the emergence and prevalence of guided munitions as a system to take out high value targets has really opened up the fact that there is a lack of a layer to deal with the small, inexpensive and swarming things that now fill the sky. As far back as Gulf War 1 most of our doctrine called for a an opening phase where we took out air defence systems so that our superior air power had full play. While once that might have been the role of aviation, special forces, specialized air delivered munitions and other long range deep strikes, we haven't changed our strategy much while other, smaller countries with smaller budgets, have become inventive.

My understanding is that GBAD which at best was set for a 2026 delivery has been pushed back substantially from that date.

I've said it before, we should at least lease some Avengers from the US so that we can revive our GBAD skills, knowledge and technical C&C base with these as training aids until the new systems come on line. By 2030 or whatever, there won't be an AD gunner left in the CAF.

Quite frankly looking backward at how we have squandered time and resources at preparing for the wrong type of conflict shedding capabilities and corporate knowledge left and right ever since we left our role in Europe, I see very little hope for the future. It's a good thing Canada has a very large moat around it.

🤔

Speaking of the 'deep strike' thing, MLRS delivered drones sound like a pretty good idea for stripping away those enfor GBAD assets:


"If Cluster Swarm drones have EFP warheads similar to existing weapons, then each MLRS missile would release about ten drones. Each M270 MLRS vehicle fires twelve missiles in a salvo, for a hundred and twenty drones. So a battery of nine launch vehicles would deliver a thousand killer drones over the target area, enough in theory to stop an entire armored division in its tracks."

 

Colin Parkinson

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Until the Armoured division AD battery fires fires off similar munitions with 2,000 Drone hunter drones. Eventually it will be drones hunting each other and when they are done, we continue our war.
 

Weinie

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Speaking of the 'deep strike' thing, MLRS delivered drones sound like a pretty good idea for stripping away those enfor GBAD assets:


"If Cluster Swarm drones have EFP warheads similar to existing weapons, then each MLRS missile would release about ten drones. Each M270 MLRS vehicle fires twelve missiles in a salvo, for a hundred and twenty drones. So a battery of nine launch vehicles would deliver a thousand killer drones over the target area, enough in theory to stop an entire armored division in its tracks."

So how do you stop a drone swarm? With an anti-drone swarm. Put several loitering mother ships with killer seekers around your armour and then your GBAD evolves into another capability. (Loitering Anti-Drone Defence). The idea that we can counter this on the ground is ludicrous.
 

daftandbarmy

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So how do you stop a drone swarm? With an anti-drone swarm. Put several loitering mother ships with killer seekers around your armour and then your GBAD evolves into another capability. (Loitering Anti-Drone Defence). The idea that we can counter this on the ground is ludicrous.

Well, there is the time honoured tradition in some countries of using 'human shields', of course :)
 

FJAG

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Speaking of the 'deep strike' thing, MLRS delivered drones sound like a pretty good idea for stripping away those enfor GBAD assets:


"If Cluster Swarm drones have EFP warheads similar to existing weapons, then each MLRS missile would release about ten drones. Each M270 MLRS vehicle fires twelve missiles in a salvo, for a hundred and twenty drones. So a battery of nine launch vehicles would deliver a thousand killer drones over the target area, enough in theory to stop an entire armored division in its tracks."

An interesting concept and if not viable at the moment, it will be in time.

As to: Is it a WMD? The answer is no, buttercup, but depending on how it's target resolving AI works, it may become a weapon with unacceptable collateral damage consequences.

🍻
 

MilEME09

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Israel has upgraded the iron dome to now intercept drones as well. Interesting
 

CBH99

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Extremely useful system in almost any theatre.

Iron Dome has traditionally been used to engage incoming missiles, moving faster and (I imagine) higher than drones. I would have thought that Iron Dome could have already hit drones without the upgrade?
 

Colin Parkinson

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Maybe optimized for lower angles and slower speeds? Also could mean a wider range of munitions to take out cheaper drones at less cost.
 

Kirkhill

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Antonov_AN-2_(cropped).jpg

According to Shekhar Gupta Azerbaijan converted its obsolete and "useless" fleet of Antonov 2s into single use drones with massive Radar Cross Sections and flew them towards the Armenian lines. The Armenians interpreted the massive radar incursion as a clear threat and activated their tactical defences. Loitering Harop anti-radiation munitions took out the active air defence net.

From 11:30


F16 Drones from the Boneyard.


And the potential for drones launching drones.

 

Kirkhill

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After watching the videos of the F18s deploying a swarm from 5 canisters


and watching a swarm manoeuver through trees (you can skip the planning and directly to the field observation at the halfway mark if you like)


I became aware that the Australian company (DefendTex) that is supplying the Brits with these


Also holds the patent on this




As Brihard and FJAG (I apologize if I have got the accreditation wrong) seem to be arguing, the best counter to a swarm is another swarm (or Big Wing).

A group of MetalStorm projectors launching something akin to those 40mm drones might be the only reasonable counter to those F18 deployed swarms

Every day is a miniature September 1940 with mini Spitfires and Messerchmidts fighting for dominance while mini Hurricanes fight to shoot down mini Junkers, Heinkels and Dorniers.
 
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