All Things Negligent Discharge (merged)

[axeman]

so its an infantry weapon then ? ;D

 

[1feral1]

Are you stating "Fact" or "Opinion" ?.....

Being new to this site, you would like you would sit back and learn before making such a hollow comment. Gunner has been around for more than 8 posts. What do you know about the subject? Your profile is empty. So, unless you have a more in depth 'rebuttle' and back up what you say with as you say 'facts' shut your 'cake hole'.

Wes

 

[Recce41]

Axeman
No, it is a common weapon. The Armour Corp is the overall SME for the 25MM. But the Inf have it on the LAV, so we have a Inf Sgt as a rep. The Arty is a minor user also.

 

[chrisf]

Ok, brief off topic, silly question I have to ask, what does SME stand for?

 

[bossi]

Ok, brief off topic, silly question I have to ask, what does SME stand for?

Subject Matter Expert ... or, if you like comedy ... "It's Me!"

 

[1feral1]

Didn't I cop a blast of shyte from Blakey   . He sent me a 'nastygram' via a PM for critisizing him on his attitude of his posting at reply No. 30   :

He must have copped it a bit, as he refers many of us as 'you people on here' and as 'judge, jury and executioner' claiming he has got 15yrs TI of regluar Army time, etc. if so, you would think he would have known better.

My crime? Standing up for a fellow serving member, with a few more posts than just 8,  who copped it sweet by an anonymous 'SME' person with 8 posts, and no profile.


Cheers,

Wes

 

[Blakey]

Ok Wes, looks like im the only one mature enough to keep our grievances  between us through IM, sad very sad.

 

[1feral1]

Whatever :. I wasnt the one who made a fool of himself via PM was I. If ya wanna play the troll, pick another board.

In the first place, if you cant take a bit of constructive criticism, maybe you should re-evaluate your time spent here. With the pisss-poor attitude you are presenting, if you left, there would be no sympathy.

Time to squeeze the ole ball bag, and muster up some testosterone, and soldier on, or go home.

If I want any more abuse, I'll ring up ex-wife No.1.

:warstory: Wes

 

[George Wallace]

On firearm malfunction:
I shoot a lot (in excess of 20K rounds / year - not counting beltfed fun) I have seen two AD's (I consider the mechanical breakdown not a ND) form this - one with a C9 where a solider was shot in Afghanistan (the saftey button retainign spring thingy had snapped and got caught between the breechblock and the sear... then released when the weapon was moved), and once on a range in Canada where a C7 that was recently ATI'd had so little hammer/disconnect contact it went off. Two area that need to be addressed with this issue - both troops and Weapon techs need to be trained (or retrained in some respects) on what to look for while doing weapons maintenance or inspections. Weapons over the end of their service life have to be retired - not just sent back with a serviceable tag until they fail and cause death or injury.

I, too, would not call a malfunction an AD or ND.  I had a 'Runaway gun' with my Coax in Area 6 while on a Battle Run and wondered WTF.  Of course the OC was in the C/S thirty meters behind me.  Again, the result of a retaining pin vibrating loose in the trigger mech.  Hard thing to diagnose in a turret bouncing on the move cross country.  Discovered the problem when cleaning the C6 after the Run.  Knowing your drills is important.

Love...I don't know why you find the old Turret drills so confusing, other than you have never BTDT.  I personally find the Infantry drill confusing and dangerous.  Load and Ready seem ass backwards to me.  I know that "Half Load" I have a belt loaded in the tray, but nothing on the face of the bolt; "Load" means I have a round on the face of the bolt and am ready to "Fire".  How much simpler can it get.  "Make Safe" in a turret is simply putting ALL Selector switches to  SAFE .  My mitts are to large to be friggin around with a cover latch in the turret of a tank, Coyote, or LAV, especially on the move, the "UNLOAD" is a pain enough as is.  "Make Safe" is to make a wpn safe; the "UNLOAD" is where you unload the darn thing.  "STOP" is another drill that you find in the turret, and is quite different from "Target STOP". 

Misfire Drills are very important in the turret of the LAV and Coyote and have very serious consequences should one reach the point of "Hot Cannon".  The requirement for crews to be expert at their drill is beyond any doubt the most important factor in deterring NDs.  Your life is on the line.

GW

 

[George Wallace]

Ok, I'm a little confused over this. I keep hearing the term "breech explosion" and as near as I can tell, it's a holdover from the .50cal and other blowback operated weapons. The C6 and C9 firing pin cannot strike a round unless the bolt is fully locked, at which point the round is in the chamber. Once the bolt is locked and the pin strikes the round, the explosion occurs within the chamber, and since the bolt is LOCKED it cannot shoot back and release any gasses. Gas is directed forward, through the barrel, and some is redirected back through the gas mechanism. When that gas pushes on the piston, ONLY THEN is the bolt unlocked and the chamber exposed. So at no point in the entire cycle is there a chance for hot gasses and/or bits of carbon/metal to come out of the chamber.

So the point of that long winded explanation is this: where exactly is the danger? With a blowback operated weapon (eg. .50 cal) you'd get carbon and gas shooting up in your face, but theoreticaly with the C6 and C9 you should be able to fire the weapon quite safely with the feed cover open.

And sorry for going off topic, I know this doesn't really fall into the realm of ND's but it's something that's been bugging me for a long time. I'd appreciate it if anyone can enlighten me.

Also, as far as the C6 and the C9 being the only weapons where you have to increase the readiness state of the weapon during the unload....as long as your finger isn't on the thrigger, you don't have a problem You should be treating your weapon as if it's ready to fire at all times anyway, so it should make no difference if you increase the readiness state. It all comes down to good drills, and that depends on proper training and lots of repetition/experience.

I had the 'grand' experience after years of working with MGs to experience this first hand.   It does happen.   I was on the range in one of the pits as we ran all the Medics, Doctors and Nurses through the C6 and C9 for their live fire indoc prior to ROTO to Bosnia.   I was on a C9 running a female medic through her drills.   She had a misfire.   I talked her through the drill and had her step back from the gun.   There was a double feed.   I had a 12 inch screwdriver in my hand and went to push down on the rounds.   As I placed the screwdrive over the opening there was a 'cookoff'.   The 12" blade disappeared leaving me holding only the handle in my gloved hand.   I thought to myself; "Now wasn't that stupid" and looked at what I had left of the screwdriver, casually flinging it over my shoulder in disgust.   When I turned around people were freaking out.   "Are you OK, are you OK!"   from several medics and nurses......(NOTE: don't go to the range with that many medical staff....they freak out too easy).   I had shrapnel and cordite to the face and some blood, but no pain of feeling that anything was wrong.   Good thing I wear glasses.   They all figured I was in shock.   I was pissed I had lost a perfectly good screwdriver, that I had borrowed from a guy who had brought it from home.   But, I'm alright now.

Anyway, things like that happen if you fire too many rounds, don't properly follow drills, don't properly lubricate or maintain your wpn, get careless, or a myriad of other reasons.   Murphy's Law is waiting for you.  

GW

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Sorry George, I still remember that, and in hindsight (not at the time though) it was hilarious. Your right, it was panic central for the medics while we checked you out and escorted you to the amb. The look on your face that day as you stood there, stunned, with your face all blackened and that handle in your hand was priceless. I still piss myself when I think about it.

 

[George Wallace]

That's alright....so do I.....

GW

 

[48Highlander]

I had the 'grand' experience after years of working with MGs to experience this first hand.  It does happen.  I was on the range in one of the pits as we ran all the Medics, Doctors and Nurses through the C6 and C9 for their live fire indoc prior to ROTO to Bosnia.  I was on a C9 running a female medic through her drills.  She had a misfire.  I talked her through the drill and had her step back from the gun.  There was a double feed.  I had a 12 inch screwdriver in my hand and went to push down on the rounds.  As I placed the screwdrive over the opening there was a 'cookoff'.  The 12" blade disappeared leaving me holding only the handle in my gloved hand.  I thought to myself; "Now wasn't that stupid" and looked at what I had left of the screwdriver, casually flinging it over my shoulder in disgust.  When I turned around people were freaking out.  "Are you OK, are you OK!"  from several medics and nurses......(NOTE: don't go to the range with that many medical staff....they freak out too easy).  I had shrapnel and cordite to the face and some blood, but no pain of feeling that anything was wrong.  Good thing I wear glasses.  They all figured I was in shock.  I was pissed I had lost a perfectly good screwdriver, that I had borrowed from a guy who had brought it from home.  But, I'm alright now.

Anyway, things like that happen if you fire too many rounds, don't properly follow drills, don't properly lubricate or maintain your wpn, get careless, or a myriad of other reasons.  Murphy's Law is waiting for you. 

GW

    Wow.  I've only ever seen one cookoff and that was with a .50cal.  I know cookoffs on the .50 care an accepted fact, but I've never even heard that cookoffs are possible on the c9, let alone heard from anyone who's seen it.  You must have put a hell of a lot of rounds though that thing.  Thanks, I'll make sure never to go sticking a screwdriver in a hot MG

 

[Blakey]

Ive never liked the IA for the MG's (C9/C6)  Ill explain.

Here is the manual version of the IA for the C9:

113. Immediate Action. Explain that the immediate action (IA) is the instinctive corrective
action the machine-gunner will take whenever the machine-gun fails to fire. If the machine-gun
fails to fire:
a. **** the LMG.
b. Lower the butt.
c. Open the feed cover, clear the feed tray, and close the feed cover again as quickly
as possible.
d. Raise the butt into the shoulder and align the sights with the target; squeeze the
trigger. A round may be fired.
e. Lower the butt, reload, raise the butt into the shoulder and **** the LMG; realign
with the target and continue firing.
I agree with sub para's a. through d. although I would insert another sub para after d to read like so:
**** the wpn again open the feed tray and feed tray cover and inspect the breach area, to ensure the cause of the stoppage has been rectified.
So in in essence the revised IA would look like this
a. **** the LMG.
b. Lower the butt.
c. Open the feed cover, clear the feed tray, and close the feed cover again as quickly
as possible.
d. Raise the butt into the shoulder and align the sights with the target; squeeze the
trigger. A round may be fired.
e.c ock the wpn again open the feed tray and feed tray cover and inspect the breach area, to ensure the cause of the stoppage has been rectified, fire the action.
f. Lower the butt, reload, raise the butt into the shoulder, realign
with the target and continue firing.

I would propose this change for the simple fact that nowhere in the current IA do you inspect the breach area or barrel, quite a few stoppages on the C9 are as George described, a missfired round that has been logged in the barrel and does not eject when the wpn is cocked.
Any input?


[edit]Heh, it censored the "fire" word in the post [/edit]

 

[48Highlander]

I would propose this change for the simple fact that nowhere in the current IA do you inspect the breach area or barrel, quite a few stoppages on the C9 are as George described, a missfired round that has been logged in the barrel and does not eject when the wpn is cocked.
Any input?

A missfired round lodged in the breech is what he was talking about I beleive.  If there IS a round or spent casing in the breech, when you squeeze the trigger durring the IA, the working parts will fail to go fully forward.  If this occurs, I would hope you'd have the sense to locate and remedy the cause before reloading.  An extra step in the IA isn't required, just a bit of common sense.  As for a round lodged in the barrel, that round should be ejected next time you cock the weapon, unless it's a split casing.  The C6 has a tool and a drill for dealing with that possibility, the C9 doesn't.

 

[Blakey]

when you squeeze the trigger durring the IA, the working parts will fail to go fully forward.  

Negative, if that round is fully home in the barrel, the bolt and bolt carrier will be fully forward, try this with a "dummy round", put it into the breach,close the feed tray cover and feed tray, then fire the action.

[edit] I should add that this is probably due to a problem with the extractor and or carbine build-up in the barrel.[/edit]

 

[48Highlander]

Negative, if that round is fully home in the barrel, the bolt and bolt carrier will be fully forward, try this with a "dummy round", put it into the breach,close the feed tray cover and feed tray, then fire the action.

[edit] I should add that this is probably due to a problem with the extractor and or carbine build-up in the barrel.[/edit]

    This is why the pam says "a round may be fired".  It's possible that a round may have failed to extract and is still in the barrel.  If it's just a csing it won't fire, however, your next action is to reload, cock, and fire.  When you cock the weapon, that casing should be extracted.  Otherwise as you pointed out there's a problem with the extractor, and an extra step in the drill is not going to fix it.

 

[George Wallace]

OK guys.  

In my case we had put a lot of people through the guns.  All the guns, C6 and C9, were really getting a workout.  Stoppages were beginning to happen on all the guns.  Oil was being put to them quite liberally.  

On my C9 the weapon was firing; the weapons stopped.  I instructed the female medic to cock and attempt to fire.  It didn't.  The working parts were partially forward.  She opened the cover and removed the belt and reclosed the cover.  I took over, attempted to recock and fire.  Working parts remained partially to the rear.  Opened the cover, lifted the tray and saw one round partially extracted and another on the face of the bolt jammed into it.  When I stepped back and went to insert the screwdriver down to clear the face of the bolt, one of the rounds cooked off.  (At no time did the bolt have any opportunity to lock fully forward.)  At that time the only thing over the opening was my gloved hand and screwdriver.  That stoppage closed the range.

GW

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

....and Georges heart.

 

[KevinB]

I have seen a few other incidents.

I was gun controlling for a C6 MG refresher - we wehre putting a LOT of rounds down range swinging from registered tgts to engaging close tgts - we had a round detonate on the bolt but not in the chamber (partial feed)  The troop opened the cover with ensure the bolt was fully to the rear and boom - the cover flip up really quick...  No one was hurt and we went back to firing after a quick visual inspection and workign the action a few times to check for physical imparment.  Like George mentioned the problem was lack of attention to drills - c*ck then open

I dont want to even talk about .50's  on my MG course we launch a CQB down range from a Grizzly turret - the barrel went further than the round.


Blakey - BFD with the round firing.  The KEY is to get the gun back into action -- I know many MG'ers that use an abreviate IA drill - cock and look - if a casing comes out keep rocking and rolling.  While you proposal might be a kinder gentler safer method for peacetime - muscle memory is required for actions under stress - thus the shooter would continue to do it while actively engaging the enemy.

Re - half load etc -- we do the load and ready with the C7 series, pistol, shotgun etc. why should the C6 be different?