Alternate for the CIC

[Ltmel]

It is very frustrating to be in a CIC officer's position for this discussion. I am not defending the fact that we are commissioned, but that we If we want to work with cadets and receive any training what so ever, we join the CIC.   I joined the CIC because I wanted to support the CCM in everyway possible. If there was a NCM cadre, I probably would have joined that, but such an option does not exist.   So, I have a commission, which (regardless of how easily it may be had) I am very proud of.   I do not expect other members of the CF to respect me for the same reasons they would their own, but rather for how well I do the job that I am expected to do.   Which happens to be to train cadets.

There is little anyone can do about whether or not the CIC exists or is commissioned.    We can look at what the CIC does now and try to improve it.   The CIC receive little formal training because most of our training is supposed to be OJT.   This would work if it was enforced.   Unfortunately, most CIC officers make little to no effort on their own behalf.     Over the years, I had many opportunities to learn from patient and understanding members of the CF.   These are the people that most of my knowledge comes from.     Maybe, instead of being the one who refuses to salute, start a dialouge.   CIC officers also have a unique perspective, on leadership, instruction, motivation... Granted, there are alot of useless CIC officers out there, maybe you can help change that.

Be the one who asks a question in order to answer the one that wasn't asked.

 

[PViddy]

I believe thatt was well said El-tee

cheers,

PV

 

[my72jeep]

I like this idea Duke.   In keeping CIC relevent to military requirements, it leaves Canada with a "backdoor" in case, by a long shot, Canada needs to mobilize.   Although CIC would be quite aware that the chances of them being picked up and put into a regular Army function were slim, they would be concious of the requirement (and be forced to maintain some semblance of preparedness) that if we needed qualified people, they would be the first pool we would look to for leadership to be put into the breach.

As well, if required to maintain some level of standards and competency, it could be assumed that the CIC could step up and fulfill certain administrative/non-combat roles within a Homeland Defence framework.

I'm not sure how it would work administratively, but perhaps the CIC could become Officer's of the Supplementary Reserve List, fulfilling a role as a third-line "pool" of Army leadership behind the first-line professional Army (the Regs) and the second-line stand-by Forces (The Reserves).

Amazing, I think that this thread may be pulled from the dung-heap.

Good job.

Infanteer

When I transfered into the CIL now CIC it was explained to me by my career manager that the CIL was third line defence deployable in the event of a national emergency or if the war measures act was invoked.
now as was explained to me last week by a Maj. from Director General Reserves and Cadets, the CIC entrance requirements and physical fitness requirements are being changed to bring them into line with the PRes. This is a requirement now do to the CIC being eligible for the CF pension plan.

 

[my72jeep]

This leads to the question that then deserves debate.   Should CIC be members of the CF?   If they are members of the CF, then the argument for a commission is that the accountability of a CIC officer is commensurate with that of an officer (responsibility for the unit, the safety/well-being of its members, its finances, its level of training, and its overall effectiveness).   However, if not members of the CF there is no need to commission the CIC.

Good point about accountability As we speak a CIC Officer is in Club ED. For failure to account for public and non public funds.

 

[bLUE fOX]

I am a new officer cadet. I have three years experience in the Canadian Cadet movement, four years experience as a Civilian Instructor ( I will never call them Civilian Volunteers)  and was enrolled just this Thursday into the Cadet Instructors Cadre. as far as the physical standards go, I firmly believe that they should be increased, across the board both in the cadets and the CIC. Training should be improved (form my understanding) to make it more relevent to our jobs. if you want it more military then make cadets more military. make our training 1) usable and 2) pertenant to them.
As far as post secondary education is concerned, in the cadet world who does it benefit? we teach basic military skills to kids (definition be damned) most of it taken form at least three to seven years experience in the cadet world. those without experience learn along the way by asking
as far as a need for a commission, there is an organization in Canada called the Navy league. they are a sponsoring committee for the Royal Canadian Sea Cadets and another organization, Navy League cadets (for children age 10-13) whose "officers" are not queens commissioned. we could most certainly follaw there examples in all three branches, But I personally think that that takes some of the military away from cadets.
As for NCM's doing our jobs, that's why there are cadets. there are, in sea cadets any way, staff appointments in the local corps for supply, admin and what have you.
Maybe I'm just ranting, it's latter than I usually answer to these things, but one last point all of you who hate the CIC (and surprisingly I was once like you) aside form suggesting an increase in course load can you suggest to me things that I can do to be a better officer? none of this "take real basic training" and so forth. For those of you who can thanks a bundle, every one else please stop knocking what I like to do.

Sincerly
N/CDT Lane Shymko
Divisional Officer 132 RCSCC  Repulse

 

[Duke]

Blue fox,

Welcome to army.ca!

As a fellow CIC member, there are a few things I'd like to point out:

First, Civilian Instructors and Civilian Volunteers are two separate entities. A CI is a paid position within a corps/squadron. They may not actually receive money, but they can. A civilian volunteer (CV) on the other hand is a voluntary i.e. not paid position. Both still have to be screened.

Second, if what you are implying is that the process of enrolling CIC officers should become more in line with the PRes and by extension the Reg Force, why would you then say a degree is not necessary? If the goal is to make the CIC 'deployable' (internally or externally) at some point, why dilute the prerequisites?

Third, wrt the Navy League, do their 'officers' control Public Funds? I suspect not.

Fourth, there have been some constructive points raised in this thread and on army.ca. There certainly has been some bashing, but at the end of the day, it's just someone's opinion. If I busted an artery every time someone trashed the CIC, I'd be dead duke by now. The reason why I don't lose a lot of sleep about people's negative thoughts wrt the CIC is that I am not trying to rationalize the obvious, that there are CIC people out there who should not be in uniform.

Finally, if you want to make a positive impression, please try to spell check and use capitalization correctly. There are a lot of cadets on this forum, and I'm sure you don't want them thinking negatively of you, do you? Also, you are leaving yourself open for some grief if you come on army.ca, say that as a N/Cdt Post Secondary Education is not necessary and then misspell, hack sentences etc.


Duke


Edited to add emphasis in 1st sentence.

 

[Burrows]

Finally, if you want to make a positive impression, please try to spell check and use capitalization correctly. There are a lot of cadets on this forum, and I'm sure you don't want them thinking negatively of you, do you? Also, you are leaving yourself open for some grief if you come on army.ca, say that as a N/Cdt Post Secondary Education is not necessary and then misspell, hack sentences etc.

When was the last time I told you to stay out of me head!

 

[Duke]

Just call me 'Quick Draw McGraw'!  ;D

Duke

 

[BandO]

Hello all,

Just reading through the posts Re: the CIC.   I am a CIC officer, and I agree that some changes need to be made. However I dont agree we need to be bashed as much as we do recieve.   I do believe that some people should not hold the Queen's Commission. However many others do deserve it.

It's important to realise that the CIC is not a Combat Arms trade, and for good reason. Our goal is to train the youth of Canada. We are not out to train young soldiers the government does not allow that. Now dont get me wrong I have the upmost respect for the CF and its soldiers. I just think that people dont look at all sides of the issue.

As a Cadet Officer our goal is to provide safe, fun, educational and professional training. Our aims are to promote citizenship, physical fitness, and the CF.   I have worked for many different CIC officers who for a lack of a better word need a change of direction. At the end of the day, if we take care of our cadets, and pass on to them knowlwdge and professionalism then we have done our job to the best of our abilities.

As for training standards for officers, I would agree things need to change. And some aspects of OLQ's (officer like qualities) are not taught at RCIS. I do not and wont pretend to have the answers to this age old question, however I believe I do a good job, and that   the cadets in my charge never go without what they need.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

It's important to realise that the CIC is not a Combat Arms trade, and for good reason.

Well no kidding you aren't even a CSS trade, you are a sub-component of the primary reserves.

 

[McG]

Well no kidding you aren't even a CSS trade, you are a sub-component of the primary reserves.

No. We've covered this already.  The CIC is a sub-component of the reserves.  They are in no way a part of the primary reserve (which is a different sub-component of the reserves).

 

[CrashBear]

I have been watching this topic being discussed for sometime now and feel that a few have an axe to grind. I read an excellect version of How do we see ourselves-What is a CIC?

I Quote :"Let me introduce myself, I am one of the people that the majority call "Pretend Officer". There is no pretence that we may be single, or have a family as well as children. Nor is there pretence that if any of us ARE married, we have full time careers that pay for the support of the family.
There is no pretence regarding what many call our PRETEND CAREERS, that pays some of us 23 days out of the countless 100's of days we put in. There is no PRETENCE about the fact that this career if we do it with diligence, requires attention 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year. There is no PRETENCE to the sacrifices our families must  accept, so that we can carry on with this second career, that many would not undertake. There is no PRETENCE that we all have a direct impact on tomorrow's society and
what values that society may have.

I , like all of you, have never PRETENDED to be a COMMISSIONED OFFICER in the CANADIAN FORCES, because I am one, we are COMMISSIONED OFFICERS, our scrolls do not say FAKE, Non Negotiable, pretend, or SAMPLE COPY.

My trade and expertise is with the youth of Canada, whom many forget are our future leaders of our country. To train, guide, mentor and channel their energy, so that they accept and respond to the
challenges of citizenship that they will face once their teen years have passed.

None of us pretend at all. We are as qualified as any other officer. Our dedication, and commitment is as great as any; however our field of expertise may differ. So the next time someone says "Oh you're just a CIC officer", remember all that you do, and know that you are not just an anything, but an important part in our community, and someone who is directly impacting the people that the cadets in our care are going to become." UnQuote.  Yes some should not be wearing the uniform. The training is given in realtionship to the duties required and that is sometimes lacking.  A good CIC Officer will realize that and obtain the required training to perform their duties.

Enough said.

 

[Infanteer]

We are letting the argument revolve around the commissioning scroll, which is kind of irrelevant.

Perhaps we should define "Officer" and how a "Professional Officer" is something different from other roles or positions and why it warrants the "especial trust", responsibility, etc, etc.

I've seen piss-poor examples of Officers from the CIC (The one who's belly we had to lift up in order to hook her swiss-seat to the rappel line comes to mind), but there are less then stellar examples from both the Regs and the Reserves that I've seen as well.

Perhaps we'd do our best to, as I said above, define "Officer" before we start apportioning who is and isn't one.

(Disclaimer: I think we tried doing this earlier in the thread - I'm only "rehashing" it because I think it is far better then everyone marking off the opinion and defying anybody to counter it, which has been happening on both sides.)

 

[CrashBear]

Until there is a change in the Gov't policy and changes made to NDA that the CCM be directed by the Canadian Forces this topic is mute. 

Do we all feel that adequate training is required? Yes

Should that training be relevant to the duties being perfomed? Yes

Should a fitness standard be enforced? Yes

Should CIC Officers involved with the CCM have a number of years of life experience before becoming a mentor? Who Knows.  Some of us feel they should.

Does all of the above mean that the CIC Officer be treated by some as irrelevant and disrespectfully? Show disrespect at your own peril as QR&O's are very specific and do not treat different components of the CF differently, and don't be surprised if the action taken is by your own supriors and not the CIC Officer.

In order to keep on topic if there are viable alternatives to the CCM and the CIC then you have the right to send a letter to your MP and voice your concerns and attempt to have the NDA changed.  The opionions stated under this forum have little to do with viable alternatives.

 

[Infanteer]

Until there is a change in the Gov't policy and changes made to NDA that the CCM be directed by the Canadian Forces this topic is mute.

This is a discussion board - just because something isn't going to change anytime soon doesn't mean we can't debate and discuss the issues.  After all, we have threads on tanks and amphib ships.

 

[bLUE fOX]

Interesting. But what about  officer professional military education offered through RMC? Acceptable?

 

[Nfld Sapper]

No. We've covered this already.   The CIC is a sub-component of the reserves.   They are in no way a part of the primary reserve (which is a different sub-component of the reserves).

That's what I meant, should have read over my post before posting it  :-[

 

[my72jeep]

The PIO for the Borden Cadet Camp did a survey one summer out of 42 Officers employed that summer.
            2 had a Masters degree
            9 had a bachelor's degree  
            16 were attending post secondary schools
            1 was attending RMC as a CIC Officer
            2 were Police Officers
            6 ex Reg's
            1 was a civi lawyer
            4 Teachers
            1 Reg on loan from CFSAL
Now this isn't allways the case but if you use education as a qualifier the the CIC will have the regs and reserves beat every time. It is a good guess that 1/3 of the CIC is in university at any given time.
Now I will admit that we have more than our share of less than prime examples, but we are working on that now, and as was said a few pages ago officers that do not meet the basic of the requirements are being tossed.


but this is only one CIC Officers opinion, Mine.

 

[CrashBear]

Based upon the principle that higher education is always preferred, looking at the CIC a good number have achieved education of advanced standing. Usually the only thing in the education that is missing is the military aspects for which I can find nowhere in any Professional Officer qualification requirements for enrolment.  Any person with advanced education can be enrolled in the CAF and is required to take non degree education in the roles duties, responsibilities of a Professional Military Officer. That goes without saying.

As a Retired Prof Fire Chief, I would give preference to a person who had completed a University Degree program. Why? It proved to me that the individual was able to commit to a program and complete it.  Does the degree held mean that the person is a Firefighter NO. They still have to start at the bottom and work up.

The same is true for the CIC, Just because I hold a Degree does it mean that I'm a good CIC Officer? No as additional training is required to be able to perform the duties that have been assigned? Once the required training has been received the CIC Officer is no less a Professional Officer than any other in the CAF. Where the training is received is dictated by requirement. The only difference is the area of responsibility. You don't see an Infantry Officer looking for training in how to deal with a youngster with ADD, and you don't see CIC Officers learning fields of fire. One is to lead personnel in conflict the other to guide and mentor youth.

One of the other desirable aspects of the CIC Officer is one who has been around the block more than once and comes with valued life experiences and is able to help guide impressionable young people.  No reasonable CIC Officer would ever imply that they would ever lead personnel into a field of conflict as they do not have the training(nor are required to).

As to remaining enrolment criteria should the fitness standard be the same for a CIC Officer as all other Officers. Yes it should be, but that should be a topic for another forum as there are differing standards of fitness based on age and gender. The remaining criteria is the same as far as I'm aware, with Criminal records checks, background checks etc.

 

[my72jeep]

Yes your right there are CIC Officers with hardly the ability to form speech but they are few. I was just stating a reply to a past post about CIC's and Education, 80% of our ranks have higher education then any other CF group but according to some of you we are all a bunch of dumb ****. We come to the CF with life skills and a desire to work with youth not lead men in battle. but some times when you get a group of hormonal teens some on downers, some on uppers, all hyper and put them in close proximity to members of the opposite sex, a battle field will be a vacation.I never asked to be accepted by the regs, only for them to under stand that we do a job that most people would not touch with a ten foot pole, and to let us do it with as little crap as possible. and if you think our task is easy volunteer for a year at a cadet unit then talk to me.