Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[suffolkowner]

what helo would be operated from the AOPS? Cyclone and Cormorant seem Iike too big and overkill. I see theres a Polar Icebreaker helo project too that seems like it wants something more than the Griffon

 

[Stoker]

What the over/under of Nunavut being fully operational by Aug-September?

Anyone want to start a pool on this?

Are you referring to the Arctic refueling depot?

 

[KevinB]

what helo would be operated from the AOPS?

SeaHawk

Cyclone and Cormorant seem Iike too big and overkill. I see theres a Polar Icebreaker helo project too that seems like it wants something more than the Griffon

 

[Stoker]

what helo would be operated from the AOPS? Cyclone and Cormorant seem Iike too big and overkill. I see theres a Polar Icebreaker helo project too that seems like it wants something more than the Griffon

I say we get a few of these

 

[Kirkhill]

what helo would be operated from the AOPS? Cyclone and Cormorant seem Iike too big and overkill. I see theres a Polar Icebreaker helo project too that seems like it wants something more than the Griffon

If the AOPS is operating in the Arctic and as a national Offshore Patrol Vessel then it can be supported by shore based helicopters, particularly long ranged helicopters like the Cormorant. The Cormorant has bounced off of offshore oil rigs to conduct long range SAR missions.

The AOPS could operate in the same manner, acting as a Forward Refuelling Post.

It could also bounce Chinooks and Cyclones.

They do not need to support Cyclones unless they are deployed in foreign waters or the high seas.

 

[lenaitch]

If the AOPS is operating in the Arctic and as a national Offshore Patrol Vessel then it can be supported by shore based helicopters, particularly long ranged helicopters like the Cormorant. The Cormorant has bounced off of offshore oil rigs to conduct long range SAR missions.

The AOPS could operate in the same manner, acting as a Forward Refuelling Post.

It could also bounce Chinooks and Cyclones.

They do not need to support Cyclones unless they are deployed in foreign waters or the high seas.

Would you shuttle helicopters from the south or pursue the recruiting-friendly concept of stationing them permanently in the Arctic?

Can an AOPS handle a Chinook?

What the over/under of Nunavut being fully operational by Aug-September?

Anyone want to start a pool on this?

Nanisivik?

 

[KevinB]

Would you shuttle helicopters from the south or pursue the recruiting-friendly concept of stationing them permanently in the Arctic?

Both. I suspect one could find some Res Tac Hel slots from Helo pilots already up there.

Can an AOPS handle a Chinook?

Paging @Good2Golf

I would assume it could do a rear wheel ‘hover’ but I don’t think it could land engine off and be stored on it. But the SME will know.

 

[Good2Golf]

Both. I suspect one could find some Res Tac Hel slots from Helo pilots already up there.


Paging @Good2Golf

I would assume it could do a rear wheel ‘hover’ but I don’t think it could land engine off and be stored on it. But the SME will know.

AOPs was spec’s to land-on a Hook. JSS as well. Not sure about anything other than a short stop, re: tie down and replenishment. I didn’t recall those reqrs off hand. Canuck Hooks have done other big grey things (aka USN), but don’t have a comparison of capabilities between the already proven CH-147F/USN interactions and the RCN ships.



Edited to add: re: CPF/Halifax land-on…a Chinook can do a full-gear land-on to a CPF by the numbers, but I don’t if it’s been done in real-life. Hook’s gear is 22-1/2’ and would fit either sideways (better clearances) and aft to hangar (pointing nose aft). The Chinook has a small amount of negative pitch in thrust (collective on single-rotor helos) so it could ‘sort of’ hold itself down a little bit, but nowhere near the bear trap haul down to land-on in higher sea states.

 

[Kirkhill]

Would you shuttle helicopters from the south or pursue the recruiting-friendly concept of stationing them permanently in the Arctic?

I was thinking the helicopters from the south would follow their current basing and flight operations but with the benefit of 6 to 8 mobile bases from which they could operate and extend their range.


For example, in a Majaid(?) event, assuming that we were maintaining 3 or 4 AOPS in the region then southern Cormorants or Chinooks could have the vessels move into support positions for refuelling on the way out or for onloading survivors as Casualty Clearing Stations prior to being transshipped to a shore base and recovery down south by fixed wing.....

Etc.

Can an AOPS handle a Chinook?

G2G had alluded to the capability in the past.

 

[Cloud Cover]

The problem with a road up there isn't distance, it's terrain. The same thing that has seen the rail line up there in and out of service over the years.

I’d argue it’s the will to (a) build and (b) maintain. The railway to Churchill is a classic example, although many other examples are found all around this country.
Other countries push highways and railroads through very inhospitable terrain and climates for far less important objectives than we might have. We don’t do the same because of cost to build and cost to maintain at anything other than a 3rd world standard.

Can you imagine how badly this country will screw up maintaining a high speed rail corridor. We are about to find out, in 200 years when all the assessments and lawsuits conclude.

 

[dapaterson]

I’d argue it’s the will to (a) build and (b) maintain. The railway to Churchill is a classic example, although many other examples are found all around this country.
Other countries push highways and railroads through very inhospitable terrain and climates for far less important objectives than we might have. We don’t do the same because of cost to build and cost to maintain at anything other than a 3rd world standard.

Can you imagine how badly this country will screw up maintaining a high speed rail corridor. We are about to find out, in 200 years when all the assessments and lawsuits conclude.

The city of Ottawa is instructive in their Light Rail system; fully contracted out, the stations are already is disrepair, the trains although getting better have had many breakdowns, some shutting the system for weeks.

 

[Cloud Cover]

How many years into the project? 10?

 

[Good2Golf]

How many years into the project? 10?

Prior to, or after SNC Lavelin AtkinsRéalis got the contracts?

 

[Kirkhill]

I’d argue it’s the will to (a) build and (b) maintain. The railway to Churchill is a classic example, although many other examples are found all around this country.
Other countries push highways and railroads through very inhospitable terrain and climates for far less important objectives than we might have. We don’t do the same because of cost to build and cost to maintain at anything other than a 3rd world standard.

Can you imagine how badly this country will screw up maintaining a high speed rail corridor. We are about to find out, in 200 years when all the assessments and lawsuits conclude.

Swiss engineers were consulted on the Trans Canada in BC in the 1950s. They recommended an extensive programme of tunnelling. The government of BC opted to bang some logs into the side of the mountains and stick some asphalt on top.

....

The Faroes comprise 18 islands in the North Atlantic midway between the Shetlands and Iceland. They have a population of 53,000. They have a land area of 1399 km2.

The 18 islands making out the Faroe Islands has 53,000 inhabitants and now 20 tunnels, of which three are long tunnels under the sea. Two more are already under construction, and another 14 are on the drawing board or wish list.

The biggest of the future tunnel projects will be the tunnel from the southmost island of the Faroe Islands, Suðuroy, to the island of Sandoy. The tunnel is expected to cost around 3.4 billion DKK ( 450 million Euro) and will be around 22-24 kilometres (13-15 miles) long, making it the longest car traffic subsea tunnel in the world.

World first under sea roundabout

THE NEW GIANT UNDERWATER “JELLYFISH” ROUNDABOUT HAS BECOME THE LATEST FAROE ISLANDS TOURIST ATTRACTION

visitfaroeislands.com

Transport in the Faroe Islands - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Roads, cars, trucks, tunnels, bridges, ferries, airports and heliports as well as their own small fleet of 6 cargo ships of various types. In addition the islands are served by ocean going ferries from Denmark and Iceland.

 

[Kirkhill]

Meanwhile -

Gulf Islands in BC - 26,000 population
Vancouver Island - 864,000 population

Distance from Westham Island to Galiano Island - 28 km
Distance from Galiano to Salt Spring Island - 4 km
Distance from Salt Spring Island to Vancouver Island - 1 km.

....

Distance from Labrador to Newfoundland - 18 km

 

[lenaitch]

Meanwhile -

Gulf Islands in BC - 26,000 population
Vancouver Island - 864,000 population

Distance from Westham Island to Galiano Island - 28 km
Distance from Galiano to Salt Spring Island - 4 km
Distance from Salt Spring Island to Vancouver Island - 1 km.

....

Distance from Labrador to Newfoundland - 18 km

A bit of apples and oranges. The Strait of Belle Isle may only be a comparative handful of kilometers, but to get to it from the ROC is a couple of thousand, either via the Trans-Labrador Highway or a virgin route along the north shore of the St. Lawrence. Nasty terrain and climate either way. It then lands at the most remote end of the island. I would suspect that, in economic terms, transportation companies would still find the ferries cheaper and faster.

With enough will and money you can probably build anything to anywhere. When rock is involved, it is costly but likely more stable. One problem with northern Ontario and, I suspect, northern Manitoba, is pervasive muskeg, which is basically a mat of peat floating on water. I have stood on what I though was solid ground and jumped up and down and could make a tree sway. Early highway and rail construction basically laid down cords and cords of wood ('corduroy') until it stopped sinking, which sometimes took weeks. Depending on the local geology, you might be able to use the sand/gravel outcroppings, provided they go in the direction you want to go. Even today, the ONR's trains to Moosonee constantly sway from side-to-side, which limits both weight and speed. There was talk at one point of using GO-Transit bi-level passenger cats for the Polar Bear Express but found that anybody riding in the upper deck would probably become ill.

 

[Kirkhill]

A bit of apples and oranges. The Strait of Belle Isle may only be a comparative handful of kilometers, but to get to it from the ROC is a couple of thousand, either via the Trans-Labrador Highway or a virgin route along the north shore of the St. Lawrence. Nasty terrain and climate either way. It then lands at the most remote end of the island. I would suspect that, in economic terms, transportation companies would still find the ferries cheaper and faster.

Trans-Labrador Highway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Quebec Route 138 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Schefferville to Churchill and Muskrat Falls, Churchill Falls to Goose Bay, Goose Bay to Old Fort on Quebec Highway 138, just past Blanc Sablon on the Strait of Belle Isle.

Until the mid-1990s, the (138) highway's eastern terminus was Havre-Saint-Pierre, but in 1996 the extension to Natashquan was completed. A 40 km gravel section between Natashquan and Kegaska opened on September 26, 2013, with the inauguration of a bridge across the Natashquan River.[4]' [5]

A third segment of Route 138 extends from Old Fort to the Newfoundland and Labrador border (connecting with Newfoundland and Labrador Provincial Route 510), near Blanc-Sablon on the eastern end of the Côte-Nord.[6]

A gap remains between Kegaska and Old Fort, through isolated communities accessible only by coastal ferry. On August 25, 2006, the Quebec government announced a 10-year project to connect the two segments by building 425 km of highway along the Lower North Shore. In 2011, the Quebec government announced an additional $122 million investment for the project over five years as part of the Plan Nord.[7] However, by 2013 difficulties ensued between the Quebec Ministry of Transport and the Pakatan Corporation, who was previously responsible for managing the funding for this project, leading to the termination of agreement between the two. By this time only 12 km of this road had been built, plus some additional engineering work and deforestation.[8] The construction of two segments of the highway (Kegaska–La Romaine and Tête-à-la-Baleine–La Tabatière) was set to begin in 2019. A total of $232 million will be contributed to this project.[9]

Completing the coastal highway remains a work in progress. One that proceeds at its own pace but one that proceeds.

Newfoundland and Labrador Fixed Link | Canada Infrastructure Bank (CIB)

The CIB, Newfoundland and Labrador Department of Transportation and Infrastructure is looking to further assess a fixed transportation link between the Island and Labrador.

cib-bic.ca

Estimates for tunnel to Newfoundland show doubled project costs, large annual losses, and slower trips

Despite high operating costs and barely reduced travel times, Ottawa and the province are still talking about proceeding with the project.

nationalpost.com

When Minister Dominic LeBlanc took over the infrastructure portfolio in 2021, he was instructed to keep working on the project.

“Support major nation-building projects that will benefit people across various regions, connect our country and improve quality of life, including the Newfoundland-Labrador fixed transportation link,” his mandate letter from the prime minister said.

The proposed fixed link has been an idea floated for decades, going back to the province’s first premier, Joey Smallwood.

Hatch Engineering was commissioned in 2018 to revisit the idea, updating work done in a 2004 study, and estimated that a rail tunnel under the Strait of Belle Isle, running from Yankee Point, Newfoundland to Point Amour, Labrador would cost $1.675 billion. The 18-kilometre rail tunnel was the least expensive option available, it said, and it was proposed that it carry cars and trucks across on special train cars, in addition to passengers.

The Faroe Islanders cost the Danes a fortune but they still build them tunnels. It is both a matter of pride and a bet on the future.

With enough will and money you can probably build anything to anywhere. When rock is involved, it is costly but likely more stable. One problem with northern Ontario and, I suspect, northern Manitoba, is pervasive muskeg, which is basically a mat of peat floating on water. I have stood on what I though was solid ground and jumped up and down and could make a tree sway. Early highway and rail construction basically laid down cords and cords of wood ('corduroy') until it stopped sinking, which sometimes took weeks. Depending on the local geology, you might be able to use the sand/gravel outcroppings, provided they go in the direction you want to go. Even today, the ONR's trains to Moosonee constantly sway from side-to-side, which limits both weight and speed. There was talk at one point of using GO-Transit bi-level passenger cats for the Polar Bear Express but found that anybody riding in the upper deck would probably become ill.

https://pubs.aina.ucalgary.ca/arctic/Arctic12-1-2.pdf

I don't underestimate the challenges but others seem to have accepted them as worth the attempt. The above map seems to suggest why Moosonee might have been considered for one route to salt water in that it appears to skirt most of the peatlands. Likewise it seems to suggest why the York Factory - Port Nelson route might be given preference over the Churchill route. Churchill may present a better harbour but the approach through the peatlands is longer. Port Nelson is closer to the hard rock of the Shield.

And I have driven across floating bridges in Canada and the US and highways built over swamps and Bayous on the Gulf Coast.

And then there is always this highway

US Highway 1 To Key West: How The Road To Paradise Came To Be

Attributing to the movement that drove Ernest Hemingway from the Florida paradise was the development of what is now known as U.S. Highway 1

www.hotcars.com

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If the AOPS is operating in the Arctic and as a national Offshore Patrol Vessel then it can be supported by shore based helicopters, particularly long ranged helicopters like the Cormorant. The Cormorant has bounced off of offshore oil rigs to conduct long range SAR missions.

The AOPS could operate in the same manner, acting as a Forward Refuelling Post.

It could also bounce Chinooks and Cyclones.

They do not need to support Cyclones unless they are deployed in foreign waters or the high seas.

As I said before, copy the model of what the CCG does for Helicopters. The helicopters and crews are owned, operated and maintained by TC and leased to the CCG. Mandate TC to buy 8 more helicopters and hire pilots and crews. The helicopter will be a Bell 429, it may need some comms added. But would come with a lifting hook. A rescue winch could be added, but that adds a lot of training dollars. Perhaps build them with the fittings for it, but not mounted. These helicopters support the AOP's on domestic duties, particularly in the Arctic, where the majority of tasking are personal transfer, slinging supplies and ice recce. They can also support the JSS in domestic ops as well.

Canadian made product with Canadian crews. That is very doable politically and takes some strain off the CAF helicopter fleet and minimizes personal impacts.

Bell 429

 

[DBNSG]

As I said before, copy the model of what the CCG does for Helicopters. The helicopters and crews are owned, operated and maintained by TC and leased to the CCG. Mandate TC to buy 8 more helicopters and hire pilots and crews. The helicopter will be a Bell 429, it may need some comms added. But would come with a lifting hook. A rescue winch could be added, but that adds a lot of training dollars. Perhaps build them with the fittings for it, but not mounted. These helicopters support the AOP's on domestic duties, particularly in the Arctic, where the majority of tasking are personal transfer, slinging supplies and ice recce. They can also support the JSS in domestic ops as well.

Canadian made product with Canadian crews. That is very doable politically and takes some strain off the CAF helicopter fleet and minimizes personal impacts.

Bell 429

Another benefit is Shearwater already hosts two CG 429's but I don't know the West Coast situation.

 

[Kirkhill]

As I said before, copy the model of what the CCG does for Helicopters. The helicopters and crews are owned, operated and maintained by TC and leased to the CCG. Mandate TC to buy 8 more helicopters and hire pilots and crews. The helicopter will be a Bell 429, it may need some comms added. But would come with a lifting hook. A rescue winch could be added, but that adds a lot of training dollars. Perhaps build them with the fittings for it, but not mounted. These helicopters support the AOP's on domestic duties, particularly in the Arctic, where the majority of tasking are personal transfer, slinging supplies and ice recce. They can also support the JSS in domestic ops as well.

Canadian made product with Canadian crews. That is very doable politically and takes some strain off the CAF helicopter fleet and minimizes personal impacts.

Bell 429

Make the helos available to the local helicopter companies and crews with a SAR/Government support contract.