Are Fire Fighters Over-rated? Split From- Are vets benefits "overly generous"? (split from CDS to CT

[Bruce Monkhouse]

My employer tried to put us back on 8's, or at least 10's, ( from 12's ) for years, but the union took it to arbitration and won.

I think it's important to make note for the "Union haters" why a case like that would be "won".  Even though we have those that say 12/16 hour shifts cost more, [see few posts above] that is simply not the case. Hours to be filled are hours to be filled.....full stop.....the times we have been threatened to go back to '8's have always been under the guise of saving money but once all the stats come in then it is obvious, for any trade that requires a detailed changeover before new shifts, that 12/16 hour shifts save money and have the added benefit of less cars on the road doing even less commuting. [which just happens to be the something Govts. push for]
The arbitrator then realizes that the management sided argument of "saving money" is a farce and that the whole thing is a corporate attempt at intimidation and when he asks if they have anything more they usually do not.

Having said all that I can not speak for 24 hour shifts that obviously have some built-in 'down' time. I have never looked into those stats, in regards to efficiency, but rather wanted to clear up Mariomikes post in case of any confusion.

 

[mariomike]

The EMS Department moved everyone from the 8 to the 12-hour shift in Feb. 1976 to reduce End-of-Shift overtime.

On the 12-hour schedule, you work 20 shifts every six weeks.

At that time, there was a Residency Requirement to live in the city. But, when that requirement came to an end several years later, many moved out of town. This became an increased concern after 9/11.

My uneducated guess is that by attempting to re-introduce the 8-hour shift, it will "encourage" many to return to the city rather than commute five times a week.

With TFS working 24's, it hardly seems reasonable for an arbitrator to expect Paramedics to give up their 12-hour shifts after working them for so many years. There's nearly no one left on the job who can remember anything but 12's.

In Toronto, the number of firefighters to be hired every year is written into their collective agreement.

"Arbitrator raps City of Toronto for not hiring firefighters"
http://www.canadianlawyermag.com/legalfeeds/1122/arbitrator-raps-city-of-toronto-for-not-hiring-firefighters.html

Article 49.01 “A recruit class would be initiated when vacancies in the present workforce created by death, retirement, resignation or discharge reaches 40.”

"Over the past 35 years, the number of fires in the United States has fallen by more than 40% while the number of career firefighters has increased by more than 40%"
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/07/firefighters-dont-fight-fires.html#sthash.OSaOLNzs.dpuf

"In many cities, both fire trucks and ambulances respond to the same calls. The paramedics do a great job but it is hard to believe that this is an efficient way to deliver medical care and transportation."

 

[HTFUAlberta]

Are firefighters over rated? Are firefighters overpaid and underworked?

I guess it depends.... I could quote all the Union and IAFF reasoning and logic until I'm blue in the face but in the end everybody gets paid to what they are worth... I was a volunteer firefighter for many many years before I went career. I don't do it for the money, trust me. If I wanted money I would take a FF gig up in the oilsands and make a lot more than my muni gig, or get a trade... Heck my GF sells cars and makes more than me!

I'll be honest I think firefighters ARE overrated sometimes in the end it's just a job. Most guys I work with would say that and that whole hero thing is a load of crap... We know what we signed up for. But then again we have some pretty amazingly crappy things that we deal with sometimes... I'm hoping to be in the CAF soon and I have a dreadful feeling that the way some people look at firefighters they may be looking at people in the CAF... But then again it's just a job right? I'm not trying to troll anything or anybody but the the only time it seems that firefighters are underpaid  and understaffed is when your house is on fire or when your loved one is dying... Anyway I have too many Thanksgiving beers on board so I'll leave it at that...

Stay safe gang, HTFU

 

[mariomike]

If I wanted money I would take a FF gig up in the oilsands and make a lot more than my muni gig, or get a trade...

If you don't mind me asking, how much do Firefighters make in the oil-sands?

Job security, benefits, pension, seniority and hours of work / time-distance away from home should also be considered.

TFS does ok. ( Not that they don't deserve it. )
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/06/28/toronto-firefighters-to-receive-14-wage-increase-over-five-years/

I saw an ad for Firefighter/ Paramedic  ( we don't have them ) in the Alberta oil-sands. It says, "Competitive salary".
http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH09/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=CNRL&cws=1&rid=2073&Source=CNRL_Careers

QUALIFICATIONS:
• Typically 4+ years of experience as a Paramedic with Alberta College of Paramedics EMT-P certification

I believe EMT-P would be the equivalent of Advanced Care Paramedic ( ACP ) in Ontario.

 

[GR66]

Are Fire Fighters over-rated?  Are vets benefits overly generous?  I don't know enough details of contracts etc. to venture an informed opinion but I would suggest that the public perception of Fire Fighters (as well as Police, Paramedics, Soldiers, etc.) has greatly changed over the last couple of decades. 

All of these were until fairly recently considered just "jobs".  Typically blue collar, average paying jobs (or in the case of the military low paying, unskilled jobs).  In recent years however these "jobs" have experienced a metamorphosis into highly respected "professions".  Emergency Service workers (and to an extent the military) are now viewed as something more "special" than they were in the past...and deserving of much higher public recognition for their work along with higher levels of compensation to go along with that recognition.  I'm not saying only perceptions have changed...the jobs themselves (and the skill level of the people performing those jobs) I'm sure have changed a great deal in that time period as well.

Perhaps we're seeing some public push-back on the levels of compensation/benefits for these professions by people who think the pendulum has swung too far, or perhaps just don't agree with the new perception of these jobs.

 

[mariomike]

Perhaps we're seeing some public push-back on the levels of compensation/benefits for these professions by people who think the pendulum has swung too far, or perhaps just don't agree with the new perception of these jobs.

There may be more news about this ( in Ontario ) in the future:
http://www.amo.on.ca/AMO-Content/Backgrounders/2013/Interest-Arbitration-The-Fiscal-Impact.aspx

 

[HTFUAlberta]

If you don't mind me asking, how much do Firefighters make in the oil-sands?

Job security, benefits, pension, seniority and hours of work / time-distance away from home should also be considered.

I'll keep it short and sweet: Day rater EMT-P (Ontario ACP) are paid around the $800 a day. Room, board and travel paid by the company. It def ain't like working a rig back home and if you want steak ever night you got it. Some of the camps are actually as nice as any hotel around with gyms, yoga studios (if that's your thing) and al ot more.... They have to be nice because no booze, women, dumb red necks and being in the middle of nowhere and having to do forced OT can be really crappy.

Some of my senior buddies up at Suncor, CRNL etc can easily make $150,000 plus when stock options are factored in.... And they're FiFO (Fly in, Fly out). With that being said it's a waaaaaaay different gig than Muni work. It's still hard work with tons of sacrifices and not much in the way of glory.... Imagine trying to get that 300 lb ironworker with a bum knee off a 300' high coker? That would suck the suck.....

I am by no means an expert of definitive source for this.... But I can tell you my buddies who work up in the oil sands drive waaaaay nicer trucks than us muni guys... But we get to fight off the girls in the bars back home while their eating steak dinners with Toothless Joe and  Newfie Willy in a camp in the middle of nowhere!

Cheers, HTFU

 

[HTFUAlberta]

Apologies for the large obnoxious yellow font and the minuscule text. I need to get a better grasp on this whole system...

EDIT: fixed it.
Bruce

 

[HTFUAlberta]

Apologies for the large obnoxious yellow font and the minuscule text. I need to get a better grasp on this whole system...

EDIT: fixed it.
Bruce

Cheers!

 

[mariomike]

I'll keep it short and sweet: Day rater EMT-P (Ontario ACP) are paid around the $800 a day. Room, board and travel paid by the company. It def ain't like working a rig back home and if you want steak ever night you got it. Some of the camps are actually as nice as any hotel around with gyms, yoga studios (if that's your thing) and al ot more.... They have to be nice because no booze, women, dumb red necks and being in the middle of nowhere and having to do forced OT can be really crappy.

Some of my senior buddies up at Suncor, CRNL etc can easily make $150,000 plus when stock options are factored in.... And they're FiFO (Fly in, Fly out). With that being said it's a waaaaaaay different gig than Muni work. It's still hard work with tons of sacrifices and not much in the way of glory.... Imagine trying to get that 300 lb ironworker with a bum knee off a 300' high coker? That would suck the suck.....

I am by no means an expert of definitive source for this.... But I can tell you my buddies who work up in the oil sands drive waaaaay nicer trucks than us muni guys... But we get to fight off the girls in the bars back home while their eating steak dinners with Toothless Joe and  Newfie Willy in a camp in the middle of nowhere!

Cheers, HTFU

Thanks for that, HTFU. 

 

[x_para76]

Thanks for that, HTFU. 

HTFU? Harden the F%#* Up?

 

[ballz]

If you don't mind me asking, how much do Firefighters make in the oil-sands?

Job security, benefits, pension, seniority and hours of work / time-distance away from home should also be considered.

Don't know how I stumbled upon this thread but I lived in Fort Mac for almost 7 years and have a few friends that are fire fighters on sites such as the ones mentioned by HTFU. They are not on a fly-in, fly-out gig, they live in Fort Mac.

I will back up what he said about $150,000 a year, and ask for him to confirm a few things I am about to say. There is tons of OT available if you want it and its triple-time. Your shift, IIRC, is 6 (12 hrs) on and 6 days off, so if you are willing to work a couple shifts of those on your days off each cycle, you can top 200,000 or 225,000 pretty easy.

When it comes to job security / pensions / benefits, there is not much out there better than the companies in Fort Mac. Suncor, Syncrude, CNRL, and Shell being "the big four" so to speak. If you are working for one of those companies, you are good in that department.

Time-distance away from home is always crap in Fort Mac. If you live in town, Suncor is the closest and because of traffic its still a minimum an hour. You're looking at up to 2 hours or more each way on a normal day, and Hwy 63 is famous for accidents causing 4-5 hr commutes. I worked on the sites briefly as an apprentice so I got to deal with this lots, and despite the big spending they've been doing on infrastructure that place's growth has well outpaced the development.

 

[HTFUAlberta]

Don't know how I stumbled upon this thread but I lived in Fort Mac for almost 7 years and have a few friends that are fire fighters on sites such as the ones mentioned by HTFU. They are not on a fly-in, fly-out gig, they live in Fort Mac.

I will back up what he said about $150,000 a year, and ask for him to confirm a few things I am about to say. There is tons of OT available if you want it and its triple-time. Your shift, IIRC, is 6 (12 hrs) on and 6 days off, so if you are willing to work a couple shifts of those on your days off each cycle, you can top 200,000 or 225,000 pretty easy.

When it comes to job security / pensions / benefits, there is not much out there better than the companies in Fort Mac. Suncor, Syncrude, CNRL, and Shell being "the big four" so to speak. If you are working for one of those companies, you are good in that department.

Time-distance away from home is always crap in Fort Mac. If you live in town, Suncor is the closest and because of traffic its still a minimum an hour. You're looking at up to 2 hours or more each way on a normal day, and Hwy 63 is famous for accidents causing 4-5 hr commutes. I worked on the sites briefly as an apprentice so I got to deal with this lots, and despite the big spending they've been doing on infrastructure that place's growth has well outpaced the development.

Ballz you are 110% correct... As is X_Para76

Buts lets not change the topic. We're talking about those over paid and over rated firefighters! 

Cheers, HTFU

 

[mariomike]

I will back up what he said about $150,000 a year, and ask for him to confirm a few things I am about to say. There is tons of OT available if you want it and its triple-time. Your shift, IIRC, is 6 (12 hrs) on and 6 days off, so if you are willing to work a couple shifts of those on your days off each cycle, you can top 200,000 or 225,000 pretty easy.

For anyone interested in an Emergency Services job at Horizon Oil Sands:
http://www.firehall.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24193

There is an open job posting for FF / EMT-Paramedic ( ACP ) in Reply #23.