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Armoured RECCE

Kindofish!

I really don't get bothered about the rank inflation bit. I figure jobs have to be done and somebody has to do them. In a small army the issue is going to be more a case of whether the job requires a section or a brigade. The rank of the body in charge could be anything.

Which kind of brings me back around to the issue of scrimmaging. On exercise how often does the OiC die? How often is the command handed off to subordinates in the know or a new OiC that has to be read in? Do the subordinates know enough to complete the mission when the Chain of Command ceases to exist?

Substantive Captains acting Brigadier, Sergeants acting OC are not unknown in Canadian history.
Depends on the unit.
Years ago when AVGP’s roamed the earth / it was common for OC’s to hand off to the senior Pl Commander (or Coy 2i/c if you had one)
I’ve been a Pl WO on a life fire ex, as a Cpl. As well as Pl Comd (not live though).

Western Armies are usually pretty good with Orders so even the lowest Pte knows the plan.
 
I get a sense that if you're not surveilling, then you're essentially doing some kind of advance-to-contact-lite, in which case the organization has to be able to fight the resulting kinds of battles. Unless we're back to "Just drive down that road until you get blown up".
 
Unless you have an unbalanced, geriatric POTUS that makes every decision a wrong one.
And never say never. Currently, with the mess on their southern border, they now have millions of undocumented illegal aliens from some 150 countries, currently wandering free in the US with no supervision or surveillance. And the current administration has no intention of stopping it. Matter of fact, they are set to drop Title 42 which will massively increase that influx of undocumented illegals. Why fight blockades if you can just walk in?

Sounds like a law enforcement problem, not a national defense problem. But the US Republicans have always confused the two.
 
Sounds like a law enforcement problem, not a national defense problem. But the US Republicans have always confused the two.

The problem might be determining how to react to hostile soldiers out of uniform and gangs of criminals with machine guns and RPGs. And how many SWAT teams are required.
 
The problem might be determining how to react to hostile soldiers out of uniform and gangs of criminals with machine guns and RPGs. And how many SWAT teams are required.
Law enforcement and national security elements (god knows they have enough organizations that do that) but not Army.

Again let's talk about RECCE, this thread just loves its derailments (I'm as guilty as the next one...)
 
I get a sense that if you're not surveilling, then you're essentially doing some kind of advance-to-contact-lite, in which case the organization has to be able to fight the resulting kinds of battles.
If that's the case, then TAPV is no good unless it's a Mali-type situation (where they would be pretty good I think). LAV 6 are probably OK with their up armor package, though they can't deal with anything equivalent to their own armor with a 25mm. Would need an addition of a Spike or equivalent to deal with heavier vehicles they run into.
Unless we're back to "Just drive down that road until you get blown up".
Enemy contact. Reference my burning hulk.
 
If that's the case, then TAPV is no good unless it's a Mali-type situation (where they would be pretty good I think). LAV 6 are probably OK with their up armor package, though they can't deal with anything equivalent to their own armor with a 25mm. Would need an addition of a Spike or equivalent to deal with heavier vehicles they run into.
Would it be fair to say that the narrow scope and cheapness of the LAV UP program (not upgunning/ replacing primary turret, not creating specialist turrets- mortar, AT etc) is one of the main contributors to the shortcomings of the current vehicle fleet?

Seems like a lot of present problems would be solved if all combat arms variants got a 35mm, a certain percentage had Spike's under armour, some got the AMS or AMOS, etc.
 
If that's the case, then TAPV is no good unless it's a Mali-type situation (where they would be pretty good I think). LAV 6 are probably OK with their up armor package, though they can't deal with anything equivalent to their own armor with a 25mm. Would need an addition of a Spike or equivalent to deal with heavier vehicles they run into.

Enemy contact. Reference my burning hulk.
Ahh shades of the 70's, recce by death.
 
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Would it be fair to say that the narrow scope and cheapness of the LAV UP program (not upgunning/ replacing primary turret, not creating specialist turrets- mortar, AT etc) is one of the main contributors to the shortcomings of the current vehicle fleet?

Seems like a lot of present problems would be solved if all combat arms variants got a 35mm, a certain percentage had Spike's under armour, some got the AMS or AMOS, etc.
I would agree with the lack of scope. The Army is replacing all of the other APC type vehicles with LAV-based variants, like Ambulances and Engineering vehicles. I would argue that those are the priority. Replace the capability you have at a minimum and it's an easy put for the Army to sell.

A turret change would be something that should be looked into. Strykers have some interesting options they are trying out and that would be my first place to look.
 
I would agree with the lack of scope. The Army is replacing all of the other APC type vehicles with LAV-based variants, like Ambulances and Engineering vehicles. I would argue that those are the priority. Replace the capability you have at a minimum and it's an easy put for the Army to sell.

A turret change would be something that should be looked into. Strykers have some interesting options they are trying out and that would be my first place to look.

Apologies, I was posting from backward looking perspective.
"The LAV III fleet will receive turret and chassis (hull) upgrades, which will improve the protection, mobility, and lethality of the LAV III platform, while maximizing command support and improving crew ergonomics. The project will capitalize on existing and evolving technology to modernize a portion of the existing LAV III fleet to ensure it remains the backbone of domestic and expeditionary task forces. It will also extend the life span of the LAV to 2035.

This project provides the Canadian Army with a flexible, multi-purpose capability to respond effectively and successfully to the full spectrum of military operations.

The first on-schedule delivery of upgraded LAVs was announced in January 2013. Final vehicle delivery occurred in July 2019."
(emphasis mine)

I don't know how someone of clear mind could read that in 2008-2011 and think "Yeah, 550 vehicles with 25mm chain guns delivers"
 
I will try to offer some additional doctrinal baseline.

We can get very wrapped up with differences between Reconnaissance and Surveillance and then have long, passionate debates about Target Acquisition. The fairly new Sense - The Operational Function offers that: Reconnaissance is finding something; Surveillance is watching for something; and Target Acquisition is finding something with enough accuracy to trigger engagement. So what? Some systems might be hyper-specialized for one of those tasks, but most could potentially do all of them.

Our ISTAR doctrine tells us that it is a grouping and a process. It is really a process at the end of the day that serves three purposes:

a. provide situational awareness (Sensor: Gr 123456, 1 x T72S Battalion moving SE (unspoken FYI at the end) - Action at CP: "Oh crap")

b. support to targeting (Sensor: "1 x T72S Battalion in TAI 401" - Action at CP "Engage TAI 401 as per AGM!"

c. support to commander's decision-making (Sensor: "1 x T72S Bn in NAI 401 heading SE" - Comd "Launch the Countermoves to KZ A1!"

Armoured Recce elements can perform all three purposes and can execute reconnaissance, surveillance and target acquisition tasks. They are also more than just parts of the ISTAR process, even if they are grouped as an ISTAR organization (yes, I was in an ISTAR Company in Afg).

Going to Ground Manouevre Reconnaissance, we recognize:

a. Combat Recce - collection of info below unit level engaged in close combat - perhaps a Cbt Tm in an advance guard

b. Close Recce - "platform-neutral" recce tasks conducted by recce elements with a BG Area of Interest (so BG/Inf Recce Pl)

c. Medium Recce - Mounted Recce tasked at the Bde and Div levels in support of operations

d. Long-Range Recce - collection of info beyond the limits of medium recce (so Corps, Theatre etc, TMZ, Entertainment Tonight)

Some of these definitions approach tautology, but they do make the distinction of who the recce element is serving, which is useful. I do not get excited about the difference between reconnaissance and surveillance in a Recce Sqn. They are all Screen mission task verbs at the end of the day and the sqn has TTPs to accomplish the task. Coyotes or the forthcoming LAV Recce variant can do great work in an OP (surveillance), but they can certainly conduct route, area, point (although this getting into the infantry recce platoon's area) and zone recce as well.

Regarding the need for armoured recce (and indeed all ground manoeuvre reconnaissance) in the modern age I turn to Stephen Biddle's 2002 study of the initial phases of the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan. This resonates with me today as well as it did 20 (?!?) years ago:

"At Op ANACONDA in March 2002, an intensive pre-battle reconnaissance effort focused every available surveillance and target acquisition system on a tiny ten-by-ten kilometer battlefield. Yet fewer than 50 percent of all the al Queda positions ultimately identified in the course of the fighting on this battlefield were discovered prior to ground contact. In fact, most fire received by US forces came from initially unseen, unanticipated al Queda fighting positions...How could such things happen in an era of persistent reconnaissance drones, airborne radars, satellite surveillance, thermal imaging and hypersensitive electronic eavesdropping? The answer is that the earth's surface remains an extremely complex environment with an abundance of natural and manmade cover and concealment available for those militaries capable of exploiting it."

My takeaway is that UAVs and other sensors are absolutely useful, but they will not find everything. You could then just go with combat reconnaissance, leading with combat teams and trusting to armour and firepower. That can work, but it can also lead to decisive engagement/culmination at the time determined by the enemy instead of us. Armoured Recce, employing stealth, manouevre and sensors can both tell you about the ground in front of you as well as risking the smallest amount of force to enemy kill zones and countermoves. That is not just "recce by death." While some General once said "Ask me for anything but time"; there is also the truism "Time spent in recce is seldom wasted." Given some time, armoured recce can tell you what's in front without having simply trundle down the road to their death. We've seen the apparent results of that method in the current war.

On this site we tend to focus on equipment and organization, since a quick visit to the google-machine gives us lots of data. I think we also need to talk about training and doctrine.
 
On this site we tend to focus on equipment and organization, since a quick visit to the google-machine gives us lots of data. I think we also need to talk about training and doctrine.
Anyplace open source to read the doctrine?

"At Op ANACONDA in March 2002, an intensive pre-battle reconnaissance effort focused every available surveillance and target acquisition system on a tiny ten-by-ten kilometer battlefield. Yet fewer than 50 percent of all the al Queda positions ultimately identified in the course of the fighting on this battlefield were discovered prior to ground contact. In fact, most fire received by US forces came from initially unseen, unanticipated al Queda fighting positions...How could such things happen in an era of persistent reconnaissance drones, airborne radars, satellite surveillance, thermal imaging and hypersensitive electronic eavesdropping? The answer is that the earth's surface remains an extremely complex environment with an abundance of natural and manmade cover and concealment available for those militaries capable of exploiting it."
At some point, someone has to get out and walk/ride/inspect the ground. This oddly made sense to me in this weird analogy. I have a new puppy, and in order to puppy-proof the place, I needed to get down on the floor and look around from the dog's perspective. So many bits of stuff collected under couches, behind the woodstove, or LEGO dropped on the floor that needed to be picked up I couldn't see from my UAV perspective up high.
 
Anyplace open source to read the doctrine?


At some point, someone has to get out and walk/ride/inspect the ground. This oddly made sense to me in this weird analogy. I have a new puppy, and in order to puppy-proof the place, I needed to get down on the floor and look around from the dog's perspective. So many bits of stuff collected under couches, behind the woodstove, or LEGO dropped on the floor that needed to be picked up I couldn't see from my UAV perspective up high.
Ideally a portion of the Recce could be done in some manners by ISR UAV's as well as some local "Recce Det" UCV and UAS, supported by LRSS, and other assets.
 
I get a sense that if you're not surveilling, then you're essentially doing some kind of advance-to-contact-lite, in which case the organization has to be able to fight the resulting kinds of battles. Unless we're back to "Just drive down that road until you get blown up".
AKA Russian Recce
 
The US like their M-1117's as well. I worked with the 97th MP and they loved that vehicle.
 
If that's the case, then TAPV is no good unless it's a Mali-type situation (where they would be pretty good I think). LAV 6 are probably OK with their up armor package, though they can't deal with anything equivalent to their own armor with a 25mm. Would need an addition of a Spike or equivalent to deal with heavier vehicles they run into.

Enemy contact. Reference my burning hulk.


Contact. Reference junior's burning hulk.

FTFY
 
Ideally a portion of the Recce could be done in some manners by ISR UAV's as well as some local "Recce Det" UCV and UAS, supported by LRSS, and other assets.
I think they can be a fine addition. Kinda like having a Kiowa back with my Ferret.

Depending on task. If it's something like a route recce for follow on forces, we have to prove the route by driving it. Laterals get driven to the distance stated in orders.
 
Could something like the Cockerill i-X be useful in a Recce Squadron (ideally in conjunction with UGVs, UAVs and the LAV-LRSS)

cockerill-i-x-2-980x551.jpg

Kind of like a modern Ferret. Also light enough (and air transportable) that it could provide some fire support for light infantry in ISVs when equipped with a 30mm and ATGMs.
 
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