Ask The CSE Chief

[CivCanuck]

Thanks both of you for your responses to his question (which I was interested in seeing the answers to). And that list of the subjects actually sounds quite interesting.  I realize that NCS ENG isn't your trade, but I'm sure both of you are quite knowledgeable about it, and this seems like a great opportunity for me to ask a few of my own questions, so here it goes:

a.) You're both completely right that explaining "difficulty" is very tough to do. However, I know one of the things people say about MARS is that it has a very high (I think the highest) failure rate for occupation training. It's impossible to compare the two directly since they have different entry requirements, but do you have a general idea how high the failure rate is for NCS ENG? Not that it really matters, I wouldn't not try something because it might be difficult, but it would be interesting to have an idea (and if you don't know this, don't worry about it)

b.) Chief Gunner, your timing for each of the phases adds up to about 3 years total (when you add in BOTC and the other early training). Are you saying that you are normally promoted to head of department after about only 3 years in the military? That seems very short, and  I was under the impression that you spent a lot longer as assistant head of department, or is there something else I'm missing?

c.) I'm sure you've both spent a lot of time working closely with the NCS ENG's, in general could you give a bit of an idea what they do beyond the writeup on the recruiting site. Like is it a lot of practical application, or is this mostly left to the NCMs and in general the officers are more managers? I guess I'm asking sort of how is a NCS ENG's time broken up (personnel management vs using their technical knowledge vs project management, etc.). Hopefully this makes sense, I'm having trouble putting my question into words here.

d.) I realize that it will be different for everyone, but in general how much of a NCS ENG's career is spent on a ship? Are most jobs below the level of Lt. Commander ship postings, or do most people just spend a few years as head of department and the rest in some sort of land based capacity? Is it considered a "hard sea trade"?  And am I right in assuming that unlike MARS, if you can get promoted past Lt(N), then all postings will be land based?

Again, thanks a lot for all your help, it's really great to get to find out about the CSE department from people experienced in it.

 

[Chief Gunner]

CivCanuck

The MARs Training requires people to be able to make correct decisions very quickly under very high stress levels for long periods of time. This level of stress is very difficult for some people to do consistently. IMO the MARs minimum education requirements are not what they should be.  These things plus a multitude of others contribute to failure rates. I do not know what the NCS Eng failure rate is.

Assistant Head of Department is OJT. It takes longer for some to complete than others for a variety of reasons. No you will not be a head of department in three years. Although there have been exceptions, most qualified NCS Engs are posted ashore to an engineering position related to ship support and/or maintenance for several years. Some NCS Eng never go to sea again.

Most Heads of Department (HODs) are LT(N)s. The way they run their department is something for them to work out based on their style. Some are micro managers and some are totally hands off. Ideally somewhere in between they will work with the CSE Chief to run a efficient department with good morale. The HOD is an engineer not a technologist or technician some don't get that fact. It is unusual to see a NCS Eng LCdr in a sea going position unless it is a formation engineering position.

Sea time total for officers regardless of occupation is generally less than 10 years with NCS Eng being about seven years.
Officers don't have trades - are not tradesmen - and NCS Eng are often employed outside of the Navy.


I hope this answers your questions

Cheers

Douglas

 

[CivCanuck]

Thanks for your answers. That more or less answer my questions (well honestly I was moreso just fishing for information than looking for specific answers  ) However, the one thing I want to ask from your response is:

Officers don't have trades - are not tradesmen - and NCS Eng are often employed outside of the Navy.

Do you just mean that they end up doing engineering tasks for the Army and/or Air Force? Is there a reason officers trained in Navy equipment end up working with the other elements? Thanks.

 

[Chief Gunner]

Thanks for your answers. That more or less answer my questions (well honestly I was moreso just fishing for information than looking for specific answers  ) However, the one thing I want to ask from your response is:
Do you just mean that they end up doing engineering tasks for the Army and/or Air Force? Is there a reason officers trained in Navy equipment end up working with the other elements? Thanks.

Well it works out that there are any number of jobs that have to be done by somebody that are not specific to any one group. Management and administrative, recruiting, recruit training, leadership training, project management, exhibits and displays, military liaison, foriegn development projects, military exchanges, external affairs liaison, search & rescue coordination centres, embassy staff . . . the list is endless ( not really - but it seems that way some times ) 

 

[CivCanuck]

Well it works out that there are any number of jobs that have to be done by somebody that are not specific to any one group. Management and administrative, recruiting, recruit training, leadership training, project management, exhibits and displays, military liaison, foriegn development projects, military exchanges, external affairs liaison, search & rescue coordination centres, embassy staff . . . the list is endless ( not really - but it seems that way some times ) 

Ah I see, makes sense. Interesting variety of possibilities you listed. Thanks again.

 

[Sean136]

hey im not sure if you guys still check this thread but i was interested in this trade and was wondering what duties the CSE were? like what does your job involve, thank you for your information and replies.

 

[RickDevlieger]

Combat Systems Techs, soon to Weapons Engineering Techs, consist of a dept on a ship of approx 30 people divided into Weapons, Communications, Sonar and Radar technicians, there sub divisions within those groups for different classes of ship and types of radar. Currently CS Techs are divided up on joining but when the switch over occurs all junior techs will be the same and work on all types of equipment, breaking up into specialities at the LS/MS level.

What they do, beside all the things a regular sailor does, is maintain all the weapon, radar, sonar and communications systems on board. This also include many ancillary types of gear you wouldn't expect. Basically, if doesn't have to do with moving the ship or hotel services, the CSE Dept maintains it.

There it is in a nutshell. Training and education is similar to the level of a two year college technical program, although not everyone gets a certificate to hang on the wall, depending on the type of enrolment plan they come in under. Ask your recruiter about NTTP (Naval Technical Training Program) or SEP (Subsidized Education Plan). If you get a blank look, ask them to check with CFRG. The SEP is quite new and the guy behind the counter may not be familiar with it.

 

[Donaill]

I would liek to add my two cents to the Chiefs statement as well. If anyone sees the Naval Attractions bus in the area check it out. It also carries a wide range of information in regards to Naval trades, and always has written material about the technical trades. The people that accompany the bus are also very knowledgable.

 

[Sean136]

alrighty, thanks for the great response! have a good day.

 

[Chief Gunner]

Sean136;

It is our intention to monitor this thread as long as it exists.
It was created specifically so that you can ask questions of
the people in the know.

If we don't have the answer we know who does, so fire away!

 

[OldGunner]

Chief,
WRT the upcoming chages to the MOC, I have one question:

With the restructuring of the CSE trades into the new stream, what steps are being taken to preserve the corporate knowlege peculiar to each existing MOC and ensure that it is retained long enough to teach the new (not yet enrolled) personnel who will enter the new MOCs?

 

[Occam]

My $0.02 worth on the change of name for the trade(s):

If anything, the name of the trade is even more misleading now.  While a junior WET may have occasion to work on any electronic or weapon system, the vast majority of the trade at or above Journeyman level who have specialized will likely have nothing to do with "weapons".  A QL5 "comm tech" won't be touching CIWS, VLSS, or the gun; so why does he have "weapons" in his trade name?

Changing the name of the trade/branch should have been such a low priority it shouldn't even have been on the radar (no pun intended).

Also, my question on the other thread regarding the change of name for the Branch has not been answered.  Care to shed some light on that, Chief?

 

[NavyShooter]

Chiefs,

Has any thought been given to shifting the structure of the CSE department more towards the IMCS Tech model, where a smaller number of dedicated technicians are all that's retained onboard? 

With a smaller pool of techs, the department would become less of a manning pool for shipboard evolutions, and more oriented towards completing our own work on ship.

NavyShooter

 

[Jenerator]

I have to agree with Occam.

Ill be a Sensor Tech, yet wear a uniform with a missile on for a trade badge. I dont think that makes alot of sense.

I think slimming down the department is a good idea. But the techs would have to be taken off WOD. They did trial this one one of the CPFs during the last TGEX, and I hear it worked pretty well. But the CBT Dept didn't like it, as they were tasked with most of the WOD stuff.

Something definitely has to change, because there is no way they can keep deploying the ships with the current manning requirements.

 

[Gypsylore]

Hello all. Long time lurker, but first time posting so be easy on me.

I'm currently undergoing the recruitment process. Hoping for SEP enrollment into NET(S). <-- anyone else notice that half the time it is called 'sonar' and half the time it is called 'acoustic'? I've progressed through the application, medical, tests, etc. Waiting on final approval at this stage. My recruiter tells me he's hoping to get me into MIT in January '09. Much, much faster then I was expecting. Yikes!

An observation: From an 'outsider' perspective (and I mean these comments to be constructive), I have to say that the various threads here concerning the changing of names and duties around the NET trades is rather confusing. I've read and reread these threads several times and while they eventually make some sense (once you get a feel for the timeline of things), at first glace it's quite difficult to tell what's really being said. Takes a bit to get all the acronyms straight, especially since they change in the midst of some of the threads due to the name change(s).

My understanding is that there is a restructuring going on surrounding the technical and operational naval trades, including the NET trades. If I remember correctly, the Chief stated that this should be implemented somewhere around 2010. I guess my question is about my schooling at MIT and my eventual training once my schooling is completed. Does this restructuring process effect the curriculum at the college? I'm concerned that I'll be through my first year of school when things change over and either a) have to retrain that year or b) Miss the opportunity to be part of the first wave of newly 'reorganized' trainees. Or is it more likely that I'll have the normal SEP training and that by time I graduate, the 'amalgamated' training for the NET trades will be set up and ready?

Or perhaps, I'm just confused and shouldn't worry about it at this stage?

Here's what I think I'm reading in relation to my situation: I get approved for the SEP, then move to St. John's and attend college for two years and receive a civilian degree. Post college, I have basic training and naval training (about 20 weeks total). Completing that, I'm posted to work going through my apprentice training. At this point its a bit different with the changes, yes? Instead of working with an eye towards sonar systems, the new system has NETs working in all technical areas. Completing the apprenticeship has the Chief (with my input) choosing which specialty (Communications, Radar, Sonar) to specialize in. More training follows. Does this sound about right?

I hope I've followed that correctly. Thanks for any replies!

 

[2fly]

Gypsylore , you have it right on the money.  The school part will not change for you it is just the equipment training that you will go through.  Upon completing your diploma program at your chosen school (2 years), you will go to Halifax/Esquimalt for equipment training.  I cannot comment on the equipment covered since that is the CSE Chiefs business and is currently under review.  In a nutshell, you will do some basic equipment training mixed with practical training on the ship (equipment packages completed on the ship).

 

[Gypsylore]

Many thanks, 2fly. Nice to know I was on the right track. I'm told that the school has accepted my application. Just waiting for all the various paperwork to be given the OK. I'm told it looks very positive and (essentially) guaranteed at this stage.

I guess I'm still a couple-three years away before I get on ship, but it looks like I'm on my way!

Does anyone know at this stage if there will be major changes to the equipment training over the next couple of years? I'm less concerned about content (I'm one of those fellows that loves to learn for learning's sake). But what about duration of equipment training? Even though it's a couple of years away, I'm very keen to get started and certainly need all the time I can get to prepare. Thanks in advance.

 

[2fly]

Does anyone know at this stage if there will be major changes to the equipment training over the next couple of years? I'm less concerned about content (I'm one of those fellows that loves to learn for learning's sake). But what about duration of equipment training? Even though it's a couple of years away, I'm very keen to get started and certainly need all the time I can get to prepare. Thanks in advance.

The length of the equipment training depends on what path you travel down.  For example, sonar takes the least time to learn and weapons takes the longest.  In my case (communications) it took me roughly 1.5 years worth of equipment training from start to finish.  That does not include training on the ship.

As for the equipment changing... Yes, there are a number of changes that are happening over the next few years including new classes of ships (Joint Support Ship, Arctic Patrol, etc) that will have a mix of old and new equipment on them.  I understand your desire for information but we are limited on our knowledge and ability to elaborate until later in 2009.

The equipment training is easy compared to the academics.  If you can finish your academics with a high grade, you will have no problem with the equipment phase of training.  Good electronics background is the key to success in any of the NET (WET) trades.

 

[Gypsylore]

Thanks again, 2fly. I have to say it's pretty exiting to be going through this process right in the midst of some fairly major changes. Looking forward to school as I've had many years of technical work under my belt, but no papers to show for it. Hopefully all those years of assembly, testing, programming and troubleshooting will be helpful down the road.

To the community here: Give yourselves a huge pat on the back (or buy yourselves a few beers) or however you reward yourselves. These forums are a goldmine of information for those that choose to look for it. I'm very impressed. Thank you all!

 

[Chief Gunner]

My $0.02 worth on the change of name for the trade(s):

If anything, the name of the trade is even more misleading now.  While a junior WET may have occasion to work on any electronic or weapon system, the vast majority of the trade at or above Journeyman level who have specialized will likely have nothing to do with "weapons".  A QL5 "comm tech" won't be touching CIWS, VLSS, or the gun; so why does he have "weapons" in his trade name?

Changing the name of the trade/branch should have been such a low priority it shouldn't even have been on the radar (no pun intended).

Also, my question on the other thread regarding the change of name for the Branch has not been answered.  Care to shed some light on that, Chief?

Occam - clearly you have strong opinions about these things. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but at the end of the day the decision is not yours. You can continue to be bitter about things over which you have no control or you can accept that not everything in life is going to please you and move on with your life.